An overview of Ukraine Air Force flying activities in period July 14-July 17
This post provides an overview of the Ukraine Air Force flying activities in the period July 14 – July 17.
At July 12 the Ukrainian Air Force has been put on full combat alert because of numerous terrorist attacks in the east of the country, anti-terrorist operation (ATO) spokesman Vladyslav Selezniov has reported on Facebook. (source)
At July 14 the Ukraine Air Force made 5 airstrikes near Luhansk. (source BBC)
At July 14 an Antonov 26 of the Ukraine Air Force was shot down while flying at 6500. Ukraine stated they stopped flying after that incident because it was not safe. Civil aircraft however continued to overfly East Ukraine at 32.000 feet or higher.
Spokesman of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) Andrey Lysenko said at July 15 at 12:00 (English text here) that since the shotdown of the Antonov the Ukraine Air Force did not operate any flight.
The city of Snizhne was bombed by aircraft around 07:00 at July 15. As Ukraine Air Force did not fly, according Ukraine the Russian Air Force is responsible for this bombing.
The pauze in flying did not last long.
At Wednesday July 16 the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) has said that a Russian military aircraft launched a missile strike against a Su-25 aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces over Ukrainian territory on Wednesday, July 16 aroud 19:00. The aircraft was destroyed(source)
This is a photo which might show smoke coming from the crash site. (source). This is another possible photo which makes geolocating easier. More info in mh17.webtalk.ru
This is an interesting thread on vKontakte. Someone describes he saw an aircraft shot down.
Dmitry Derkachev
Saw how the plane was shot down live on 2nd Mine.
Jul 16, 2014 at 8:39 am
Dmitry Derkachev
Yes 20 minutes ago they fired in the direction of Marynivka and then I saw the explosion and the terrible whistling of the wrecked engines
Another aircraft was according to the Ukraine Ministry of Defence, a Sukhoi fighter which was hit with MANPADS and the pilot was forced to land. Sources:
Ukraine Ministry of Defense confirms the shot down on its official website here.
This is a indicating MANPADS were fired near Snizhne to Ukraine SU-25
Russian invaders firing at Ukrainian air force Su-25 over pic.twitter.com/4yyxS7YbzP
— Julian Röpcke ()
In total on Wednesday July 16 , 17 Ukraine Air Force aircraft and 12 Ukraine Army helicopers flew missions (source NDSC). Another reference here.
Here is another that flying continued at July 16. Also here official statement flying activities were resumed on July 16
This video made in Torez shows a hole in the ground made my a bomb of the Ukriane Air Force. The video is supposed to have been made at July 16
There is no data on the flying activities of Ukraine Air Force at July 17. At 14:16 Sputnik released an article stating that after the shot down of 2 SU-25 on Wednesday there were no flying activities of Ukraine air force over the region.
However many eyewitnesses tell on video that saw one or more SU-25 operating in the area where MH17 crashed. An overview here. I do not think there is a reason to believe the Ukraine Air Force did not operate on July 17.
This is a video showing a SU-25 flying low over ATO area. The video title states it was filmed at July 17 2014.
Rebel commander Alexander Khodakovsky of the so-called Vostok battalion sain in a interview with Reuters:
“And that day, they were intensively flying, and exactly at the moment of the shooting, at the moment the civilian plane flew overhead, they launched air strikes. Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down.”
credits: Arnold Greidanus and Max van der Werff for providing sources.
SO nice, you become to kremlin bot side!
For your info, flight of military planes and helos dont mean they always fly on attack mission deep into enemy territory. It can be routine take off, delivery or ferry flights, helos also can be used for rescue ops especially after loss some planes.
“The Ukrainian forces involved in the antiterrorist operation in the southeastern part of the country have not used any aircraft since Monday because of an ongoing investigation into the crash of an Antonov An-26 plane” – Where you found aircraft will not use again? Date of briefing is July 16, MH17 killed July 17. Are you sure dont mixed dates?
“The city of Snizhne was bombed by aircraft around 07:00 at July 15. As Ukraine Air Force did not fly, according Ukraine the Russian Air Force is responsible for this bombing.
The pauze in flying did not last long.” – How russian air strike (for raise people rage against Ukraine, often used trick by russian terrorists) cancel UAF moratorium? Do you have clue this aristrike was certainly ukrainian?
“At Wednesday July 16 the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) has said that a Russian military aircraft launched a missile strike against a Su-25 aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces over Ukrainian territory on Wednesday, July 16 aroud 19:00. ” – And what? UAF start to fly July 16 19:00, do you know Su-25 is plane designed for battlefield?
“Here is another confirmation that flying continued at July 16.” Lol, what wrong with using military a/c by Ukrainian Air Force OVER UKRAINE? Can you explain how it bad and can hurt MH17?
“There is no data on the flying activities of Ukraine Air Force at July 17. However many eyewitnesses tell on video that saw one or more SU-25 operating in the area where MH17 crashed. An overview here.” – Many eyewitnesses on video in region controlled by russian terrorists can say they seen Jesus Christ which bless Putin! Are you idiot and dont understand how it work? Terrorists shot down B777, glad they killed ukrainian An-26 till dont found debris with dutch spies and remnants of MAS370. Then they start LIE to all, delete their victoriuous sentences about killd plane, TV programs, messages from separatists leader. But before they said
Good fire, good falling!
Good we bring it here (SA-11)!
Of course they will start say anything for support their faking terrorirts, because you with your Netherland too far for stop their rapes, tortures and killings.
Max Vav der Werff is lier supporting russian terrorists! And you too if believe in his lie despite on facts.
After all disclosure and true is win – how you will look on eyes of dutchs which you lying? Got enough roubles for sell soul?
You know AD: from the very start of this horrible killing of 298 people I believed something was not right. There are no facts!!!
The only fact is MH17 was shot out of the sky. Most likely by a BUK missile but even that is not a fact!
Both Russia and Ukraine lied so both cannot be trusted. The only thing what can be done is investigate on your own what happened and be carefull with people who are fanactically defending their country.
Im not defending my country! Im defending facts!
You start to believe in myth and kremlin lie. It your choice. But remember what happen with all collabororators. Putin dont save you and your friends like Max from truth and despite facts on this site just show it to all.
UAF dont killed MH17, it already fact! So why you now gathered kremlin myths about involved UAF in MH17 tragedy? For investigate what?!
UAF flying over OWN COUNTRY! They fight for OWN COUNTRY with invaders (which also stolen Crimea). So you wanna investigate why UAF continue flights even after An-26 shot down? Because they under massive aasault of russian troops and under heavy fire from Russia. How it can kill B777? Cannot.
So digging in this dirt have only one target – blur evidence against Russia and redirect investigation from Russia.
People which whine about non-fresh or plastic bodies, debris from MAS 370, dutch spies, explosive on board, shot downed An-26 and 2 Su-25 – now whine about UAF flights. Why it new? They lie enough.
SA-11 TELAR CANNOT MISS TARGET SU-25 AND REDIRECT MISSILE TO B777 SO WHY U NEED UAF FLIGHTS? REALLY?
admin said “Both Russia and Ukraine lied so both cannot be trusted. ”
Did they ?
Yes, we know about the 5 lies by the Russian Defense Ministry in their war-room press conference on July 21.
But when did Ukraine lie ?
First of all: : I do not like your tone as well! It is a nonsense to threat others with suggestive question what might happen to collaborators.
Second: The reportage of Max Vav der Werff is very doubtable after his visit to the building from where the guy shot images of the smoke trail. When going already to the locations and then failing to probably investigate in situ (hanging cables) + mostly adding counter-ukrainian arguments, then I have my suspicions about this guy!
Third: Quoting Andrey Lysenko and searching for the ultimate proofs is somehow ridiculous: We all have seen that this poor guy has the ungreatful job to tell the “official government line” to the public. And we all know that this line isn’t always 100% true and that they like to cover up unpleasant things, like KIA numbers and don’t always seem to be on the top with actual informations. It is like trying tp prove the guilt of George Bush with Comical Ali. A cheap try! I wonder how the Russian generals have felt when presenting the obviously made up claims in their famous control room press conference…
Fourth: The “pilot Woloschin” is another laughable try of pro-Russian media. The guy was even interviewed after the claims of his former colleague surfaced in the Russian TV by other journalists in Kiev. He claimed in the video that the citation of his words were true just were they said after flying not on July 17th but (as I remember) 2 days earlier. Could also be 2 days later (need to recheck video). The latter would be another proof of air activity of the Ukrainian military after July 17th.
Still I find the discussion about MH17 taken down by Ukrainian air force a continuous nonsense only seriously believed by idiots! In https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/overview-of-eyewitness-reporting-seeing-military-aircraft/ , himself already lists the best reasons for eye witnesses not being able to see planes in such a height. Air force activity by the Ukrainian military…yes, that’s a possibility. Does it proof anything beside that Andrey Lysenko has the poor job of reporting to the journalists?
Admin, have you researched the option the UAF did fly at the 15th? Some Russian sources seem to allude to that. According to some sources the UAF even lost a plane at the 15th, something they will of course never admit themselves.
And its of course not very likely this false flag operation – not the first one Ukraine invented with the Russians as keyplayers – about the Snizhne bombing really happened.
I guess its not very credible they didn’t do sorties on the 15th. Maybe the bombing of Snizhne/Lenin street not very far from the site GirkinGirkin took a pic of an offloaded BUK behind a high-rise appartment had something to do with a BUK travelling/tanking in Snizhne the same day.
AD: Your “evidence” concerning the separatist shooting of the B777 is a fraud, and you know it.
http://hectorreban.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/myth-of-the-fatal-mistake-how-the-mh17-infowar-started
Besides, you seem to know a lot of operations going on in a BUK TELAR, so you should understand its not very likely seperatists ever fired the BUK at this plane.
And you must recognize if it is a missile with a warhead only launched by a BUK M1-2 or an M2 that they found shrapnel from that only Russia has it is not Separatist or Ukrainian personnel that launched it.
And this will most likely be confirmed with the DSB report, a report the Kremlin already has.
And therefore vetoed the Tribunal at the UNSC.
The only one of possible suspects that vetoed the last voting of a Tribunal being formed.
Fare thee well
I wonder why both suspicious sides, Ukraine and Russia lie on Mh17.
The answer is because probably both are involved in shooting down a Boeing. Russian separatists fired BUK missile, which damaged the left engine, and than Ukrainian jet fighter killed pilots and damaged data transmissions to the CVR FDR 13.20; 03, another jet fighter has sent a missile that tore Boeing about 13:20:47 p.m..
That’s my theory.
proof: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img909/8749/vHMwWs.jpg
The hole drilled by ending rocket.
Fuck off, dude. You forgot for consult with curator from KGB! All damage is from 9M38 missile and no planes or other missile etc here.
What happen when you sleep a year – you have non-fresh joke.
There are many many youtube videos of eyewitnesses who saw Ukrainian military jets flying.
We even have a Ukrainian who worked t an airforce base who tells us the Ukrainians are lying.
http://rt.com/news/264545-mh17-investigators-key-witness/
AD
Because you’re so excited dude, so I think I’ve found strong evidence.
Can you explain the significance of the shown hole differently?
Another proof for my hypothesis.
The state of the victims is an important evidence in a plane crash.
The many of the victims in the MH17 crash fell to the ground disrupted by an explosion with burned body and clothes (remnants of clothes). Such as shown in the picture in the folowing link (note: the image is drastic 18+) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs8UauNCAAAgxe-.jpg:medium
This proves that that there was a strong explosion inside the hull ( not outside ie BUK not finished the action). A lot of similar images can be found in the internet .
One can note that the victim is not in a pool of blood. This is a sign that the explosion occurred at a considerable height, where there is a small pressure. A large difference in pressure between the inside and outside of the body caused aspirating blood.
Many of the victims were almost or completely naked . This can indicate that disruption of the hull was at a high altitude. All this confirms the my hypothesis of tripple hit of the Boeing .
I have written two posts about it (in Polish)
Have a look on it:.
http://blogdoradcy.salon24.pl/658309,mh17-a-smolensk
http://blogdoradcy.salon24.pl/655870,mh-17-swiadek-za-30mln-funtow
Just by look through pictures and captions beneath them ( easy to translate with google translator) I hope it will be enough.
doradcar305 said “Russian separatists fired BUK missile, which damaged the left engine, and than Ukrainian jet fighter killed pilots ”
Do you think this is some kind of game where you can just kook up conspiracy theories, doradcar305 ?
Your standing is an insult to reason, an insult to honesty and an insult to the 298 people that parished in this monstrous crime.
claiming a Buk missile took out an engine then an invisible jet killed pilots then another figher finishes the job is a claim of the utmost stupidity,hate to be rude but it is,nothing on CVR/FDR, both show instant kill no long drawnout soap opera with multiple attacks please stick to possibilities,no evidence at all UA aircraft were flying in the area on that day,only if you belive they were all flying below cloud and radar level and somehow survived in a SAM infested area which is hard to believe.There seems to be a shift by some Ru/Rebel propaganda at the moment to try and justify a BuK missile launch and place blame for it on UA airforce playing a honeytrap,no proof of this exists and has no bearing whatsoever,no one really thinks “rebels” meant to down MH17 it was misidentified,BuK downed MH17 and BuK alone,no one even denies anymore that “rebels” had a working BuK and had intent to use,the rest is history
RB2:>”claiming a Buk missile took out an engine then an invisible jet killed pilots then another figher finishes the job is a claim of the utmost stupidity,hate to be rude but it is,nothing on CVR/FDR, both show instant kill no long drawnout soap ”
The pilots were killed at the same time as CVR and FDR stopped working 1:20:03 p.m. Later, the plane flew even 44 seconds with unchanged speed and on unchanged height. The only hypothesis which explains this is hypothesis with multiple attacks from different sources. Signs on the remains also indicates the various sources of fire.
Doradcar, if you look at the broader image of that part of that crash
http://www.thedrum.com/uploads/news/173818/MH17.jpg
You will see a landing strut and wheel hub there.
As far as the soot, look all around there, it was on fire.
Being at the base of the plane I am sure you would love it to be an A2A missile, but most of those are heat seekers and would have flown at the engine.
The engines were not targeted at all in the disaster.
AS far as three similtaneous missile hitting the plane at near the same timem and the pilots never reporting they were under attack in your 28 seconds, doubtful.
The BUK missile did what it was supposed to do, attacked the cabin, sheered it off, and the plane came crashing to the ground.
No warning to pilots, no planes on radar approaching the aircraft other then the noticed civilians ones.
Yes, if you consider KAL007, the pilots did not confirm two military aircraft either or the missile launch, but things have evolved with the B777, I believe.
An early warning radar beeps I think when range is less then a mile to warn the pilot.
Just because CVR was knocked out, there are redundancies that would have allowed the pilots to contact outside of that.
I would be also stored in other devices of the 777.
The nose of the plane was taken off first and that is why the cabin landed about 2 km from last FDR and the rest of the plane was about 8km away.
Nice try, but your theory is not worth considering after a cursory glance.
Fare thee well
AD:
“what wrong with using military a/c by Ukrainian Air Force OVER UKRAINE? Can you explain how it bad”
Because the Ukrainian State authorities were conducting aerial combat operations against their own citizens including bomb and rocket attacks against civilian highrises.
Most of the civilized world finds such conduct abhorent and declares it to be a war crime.
And it had already started in early April when they began using military aircraft to intimidate crowds of peaceful protestors.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/keith-gessen/why-not-kill-them-all
“And they pointed out that even in early April, before Strelkov and his crew had taken Slovyansk and escalated the conflict, Ukrainian fighter jets would fly very low over the pro-Donbass protests held in Donetsk. From the very start, Kiev had been prepared to use force.”
Again – why you faking russian troll discuss about UAF flights in ukrainian sky? Do you forgot what say your President Putin about Chechnya?
Ukrainian people dont want Strelkov and other russian proxies in their country. But all what can do Ukraine – it military action against russian invaders. Ukraine dont have deal with civilians in contested area and open borders for refugers. At same time, terrorists shot downed civilian airliner and open fire to cities.
Just give me reason why terrorists present here if they like Putin and supported from Russia? Fuck away in Rostov and Sevastopol!
Im understand how you and admin become to lovers – you both have same source of money and ideas – Kremlin. Of course then any lie or stupid idea is fully supported on this site!
Bye bye facts, welcome propaganda!
AD:
I’m an American, living in Philadelphia. The pay I get is from my civil engineering practice. And you?
Maybe you fool people in western Ukraine by saying all local militia are Russian invaders who shell themselves and the Russian Ukrainians around them with artillery and mortars and that Russia sends fighter jets into Ukraine to attack Russian Ukrainian civilians and its own invading troops. You don’t fool anyone with an iota of common sense.
I’m Australian. I’m not Russian either
Ken, if you are indeed Australian, I’m sure you would not make any unsustained claims when you write down statements such as : ““The smoke trail has been debunked by Neal Krawetz.”.”
So, Ken. Where is your evidence for that claim which you so explicitly did not withdraw ?
Andrew, as a civil engineer from Philadelphia, you surely can work out the drag forces on parts of MH17 that detach from the main body of the plane. Did you do that already, or are you still under the perception that the Dutch Safety Board is in error because by momentum these pieces would fly the 10 km from Pol’ove to land in Petropavlivka ?
Go see the other thread Rob. And reread the paper On this subjet I directed you to, since you misread it the first time.
Andrew, check your paper again, and the thread where we discussed this issue :
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-5193
Your assertion that the Dutch Safety Board’s readout of the MH17 FDR is incorrect is not only arrogant, but it defies basic laws of physics.
AD is just a Pentagon troll. Ignore him.
Andrew said “Because the Ukrainian State authorities were conducting aerial combat operations against their own citizens including bomb and rocket attacks against civilian highrises.”
Exactly when and where did the Ukrainians do that ?
Just really push it into your mind that Ukrs did bomb civilians https://youtu.be/T8IG_xm6Gbo
Antidyatel, your link presents an account to the June 2 Luhansk Admin building attacks, suggesting that the Ukrainian military caused the deaths of the people in that car in front of the building.
However, that story is seriously in doubt if you investigate the evidence, especially the webcam from the building on the side.
Specifically, a fraction of a second BEFORE the explosion of the car, you can see a small but clear flash through the tree in the center of the park, suggesting a RPG or MANPAD missile was fired from that position.
Also note that none of the people in the video seem to notice that there is any aircraft around. They simply wander around until the blast happens.
Even more clearly, the fire ball starts around the car, and NOT against the building.
Besides, the blast seems to originate from the right (which is EAST) while Ukrainian air activity was in the far south-west of the city that day, against the border guard headquarters where some 500 “separatists” were assaulting the border guard, far away from the city center.
So do you argue that the Ukrainian military abandoned their targets in the south-west of Luhansk, and instead made a wide loop to attack the Admin building from the east side ?
This was NOT an airstrike. It was either a misfire of a MANPAD fired from the park, or simply yet another terrorist attack on the civilians in Luhansk, with the purpose of blaming Ukrainian military.
Wow. You are really brainwashed. There are many videos on the same event from different locations. People were killed all over the place not only near the car. Also inside the park. The flash that you see is the first rocket launched blithe plane exploded. Do I really need to give you all the links or you can find out yourself and apologise to the victims of that disgusting act?
Your drag force calculations UN another thread are hilarious
The more footage I watch from the Jun 2 admin building explosion, the less an airstrike make sense.
For starters, if indeed 5 missiles were fired from that SU25, then we would see 5 fireballs and huge craters, or 5 little flashes and small craters, depending on the caliber of the missiles.
Instead, we see one little flash in the center of the park, then one huge fireball (blasting across the street into the building), and several tiny “craters” (potholes would be a better word) in the park itself. That is inconsistent with an airstrike with 5 similar missiles.
There is a LOT more evidence that puts doubt on the “airstrike” theory, but since this thread is about MH17, we should let this be for now.
Back to topic please.
Lugansk and Snizhne to start.
There seems to be a pattern to the comments from Kiev in the days before 17 July 2014:
1. About the shooting down of an An-26 military transport aircraft near Luhansk on July 14:
“The chief spokesman for Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council expressed suspicion that the aircraft had been attacked by a Russian plane.
Two possibilities are under consideration on the basis of a report from the Ukrainian pilots: either a strike of a ground-based missile fired from a Pantsir missile system or a strike by an … air-to-air homing missile that was fired from a Russian aircraft that had scrambled from the Russian airport at Millerovo,” Andriy Lysenko told a briefing.”
http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/213616.html
2. [from your article] “The city of Snizhne was bombed by aircraft around 07:00 at July 15. As Ukraine Air Force did not fly, according Ukraine the Russian Air Force is responsible for this bombing.”
And
3. “Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) has said that a Russian military aircraft launched a missile strike against a Su-25 aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces over Ukrainian territory on Wednesday, July 16 aroud 19:00.”
So there had been allegations from Kiev that Russian aircraft had carried out bombing missions in East Ukraine three days in a row. The next day, MH17 was shot down.
Regardless of whether there is any truth at all in these allegations, some people in the Ukrainian air defence forces must have believed what the authorities publicly said, and must have perceived a threat from Russian aircraft in that region. I wonder if somebody operating a SAM might have got a bit paranoid whenever they saw a plane flying overhead and thought “the Russians are coming”. That’s pure speculation, of course, but no worse than any of the other theories.
That´s psychology. What was in their heads planning themselves – a false flag – is projected on their enemies.
The Crimeans prefer Moscow to Kiev.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/
This is from a German polling firm.
http://www.gfk.com/ua/Documents/Presentations/GFK_report_FreeCrimea.pdf
This is blog about MH17, not about Crimea and your Pro-Russia bullshit. Yes, also many people applauded when Hitler came to rescue Germans in Bohemia and or Austria. Only a fool welcomes land-grabbing the Putin-style in 2014 with military takeovers, nuclear threads in Europe and quick referendums even there very probably is a majority on Crimea…not for Russia but for a special role not inside Ukraine and not as part of Russia. Says someone who actually knows Crimea by himself and not only from Internet sites…
Thx Ken for not enlightening us any further with your self-indoctrinated tunnel-view 🙂
Im laugh on useful idiots which support Russia!
Look on their logic:
1. Ukraine have military aircrafts at July 17.
2. Ukraine from Zarochenskoe fired missile at… OWN A/C?
Idiots!
Rob:Andrew said “Because the Ukrainian State authorities were conducting aerial combat operations against their own citizens including bomb and rocket attacks against civilian highrises.”
Exactly when and where did the Ukrainians do that ?
When they bombed places like Snizhne.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-6ce5-Ukrainian-government-bombs-Snizhne-flats,-killing-civilians#.VaOG3_mqqko
Eric, you answered in the wrong thread, but the Ukrainians did not fly on the 15th.
And don’t you find it curious that from all places Snizhne was bombed, a civilian target, which has NO priority for Ukrainian military ?
Of course Rob. That´s why we can see the possibility the Ukrainians created a provocation to get a possible rebel held BUK out in the open, movind towards Snizhne.
And when that succeeded, they could create their False Flag, shooting down MH17 and open up a trail of ¨evidence¨, planted for the occasion.
Ad: please be respectfull. Next time you use words like idiots I will have to put your comments on moderation.
No, Ukraine fired on MH17 to create an international incident that would be useful for blaming Russia and the rebels.
Either that, or they are careless idiots ala Siberian Air 1812.
Yet Andrew is allowed to use the word “idiots” without repercussion ?
admin said “There is no data on the flying activities of Ukraine Air Force at July 17. ”
That is not correct.
The Russian Defense Ministry showed radar images of flight activity in the minutes before and after MH17 went down.
There we no Ukrainian or other planes visible in these images.
Only the falling debris from MH17.
Yes the Ukrainians bombed and killed civilians but Rob Dekker pretends it never happened.
Is that “Eric the lier” again ?
When will you provide any evidence for your statements, Eric ?
You know, like the clear evidence that the deadly Mariupol attacks, and the Volnovakha checkpoint attack, and Kramatorsk, and Artemivsk, both attacked with cluster munition, and even in Donetsk, against the very people that these “separatists” claim to protect, the deadly attacks on school 63, and the Leninsky bus stop, and the Jan 30 mortar attacks, were ALL fired from Russian controlled areas.
And despite the evidence that these attacks occurred from Russian controlled areas, Russian media and Eric alike, consistently, and hypocritically blame on Ukraine.
Put up evidence, or shut up, Eric.
Just in case you didn’t understand. Please explain the airconditioner story from Lughansk. Was it rebels shooting themselves as well?
What about videos of drunk Ukrs launching mortars, and unfortunately escaping blowing up themselves?
¨Eric the lier¨? And this is coming from a person wining about other peoples namecalling. Another example of Rob´s double standards. Aaaaddmiiiiin!!!! 🙂
There is no proof who bombed that apartment.
“There is no proof who bombed that apartment.”
Sure there is. It was not the rebels who don’t have an ooperable aircraft.
It was probably not Russia or Ukrine would have provided the world the radar tape. Not many possibilities left. Could have been little green men in a flying saucer I suppose, or Nazi’s operating from their secret Antarctic Base. Or maybe it was the local national air force that was flying combat sorties every day by the dozens.
Andrew said “It was probably not Russia or Ukrine would have provided the world the radar tape. ”
What makes you think that Ukraine would have radar tape of the Snizhne attack ?
Rob:
“What makes you think that Ukraine would have radar tape of the Snizhne attack ?”
If on July 15 Ukraine lacked ATC primary radar coverage of Snizhne, then it had no business allowing anything besides military flights over the dark zone. If it also was pretending to guide and control civilian traffic blindly and “hoping” warplanes without transponders would not run into civilian aircraft, that is borderline insanity.
So the conclusion is Ukraine did have radar coverage of Snizhne and knows exactly where the plane that attacked the town came from and that it was not the Russian Federation and was more likely Dnipropetrovsk.
Andrew said : “If it also was pretending to guide and control civilian traffic blindly and “hoping” warplanes without transponders would not run into civilian aircraft, that is borderline insanity.”
You seem to be of the opinion that IF ATC does have secondary radar (transponder) coverage, but no primary radar coverage for small military fighter planes, that they should not be allowed to guide and control civilian air traffic.
Is that a correct interpretation of your opinion ?
(P.S. a simple yes/no answer would suffice)
ROB:”Do you think this is some kind of game”
No this is the Internet investigation.
I put down hypothesis which can explain most of known facts.
Could you explain the significance of the shown hole ( http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img909/8749/vHMwWs.jpg ) differently?
I have given several other arguments in links:
http://blogdoradcy.salon24.pl/658309,mh17-a-smolensk
http://blogdoradcy.salon24.pl/655870,mh-17-swiadek-za-30mln-funtow
ROD:”Your standing is an insult to reason, an insult to honesty and an insult to the 298 people that parished in this monstrous crime.”
This is bla bla bla not the arguments in the technical discussion
Interesting maidawns here.
Can’t see obvious or believe in airconditioner story https://youtu.be/T8IG_xm6Gbo
And so the Ukrainian/American trolls are clogging up the forum with personal attacks
: Let’s have a kindergarden here or fruitful discussions about facts that might help to discover the truth. It’s OK to let have everyone have its opinion but maybe you see that this comment section start to become the typical Ukraine-Russia discussion like elsewhere…Too many ideological people think they have to convince others with their eternal wisdom of everything
If the tone of a couple of people here does not change I will have to put their comments on moderation. Please be polite.
ADMIN
Are you playing a game with me? Will my entries be visible to others?
how many links are in your post?
In one just 2 links in another with red note (Your comment is awaiting moderation) 3 links. Is it too many ?
Be patient please. The first comment needs to be approved by admin. I just did.
OK now it works.
To summarize my contribution to the current discussion I must say that:
1. There is clear evidence that on the Boeing board was an explosion, The state of the bodies tell us this(doradcaR305 July 13, 2015 at 7:20 am).
2. In the Boeing floor there is the inlet hole after the missile and traces of explosion in the the second shell floor. (doradcar305 July 12, 2015 at 7:59 pm )
3.The discribed evidences are consistent with the thesis of the the author post , that the Ukraine Air Force did operate on July 17.
The ground distance between Snijne and reported hit point is 24 km. At such distance the missile will first cross the path of the plane and then attack slightly from above. Here is the view from boeing 777 cockpit https://youtu.be/-8a6qbF9ECg. How is it that pilot or co-pilot didn’t notice a 5 meter long missile with violent plume behind it? And if we trust Dutch preliminary report, there was nothing in the voice recorder, like WTF. Also the same report indicates that pilot was aware ofbthe situation just 1 minute before the hit and was supposed to look out for incoming traffic. It is hard to believe that missile came from straight on direction
Just to preempt, many people are still quoting erroneous claim from wiki that BUK missile engines works only for 15 seconds and make conclusion that after that missile is gliding in search of target. Wiki and all other sources eventually quote the same Russian book that seem to have a typo. Videos of Buk missile ejecting plume for more than 40 sec can be found on youtube. So the likely spec is 50 seconds, not 15. 15 sec contradicts the Logic if we consider the purpose and range of the system
no,its approx 20 seconds in line with its stated range,5/6 second improvment over 9M38,you are now describing a totally different missile system,alleging the pilot would have seen the missile is not very realistic and shows a tendency to relay on the Grand Conspiracy as a prop as that means DSB are lying,better to at least try to stick with what is known
No it is not.https://youtu.be/LSXMhaFntrU
In MH17 case the rocket had to fly close to 30 km till hit point (if we assume Snijne) how do you imagine to accomplish it if your engine stops after 20 sec. Rocket speed for Buk-M1 is 860m/s according to spec. And it is supposed to attack that don’t want to be hit, like F-15. How are you planning to accomplish it without thrust. No conspiracy here. Pure Logic and science
nice music video with nice cuts,not proof,SA-3,SA-6 all burntime of 20 to 26 seconds,kinetic energy used after burnout common knowledge,sharp maneuvers used by fighters to bleed off this energy is well tried tactic,you can not reinvent a missile to suit your claim,best to stick to known data
To RBR: in the video it is more than 40 sec. The second rocket is doing nearly 90 degrees turn. You can only do such things if you have thrust behind. Stone like behaviour is impossible for their purpose. So don’t be silly.
In which video it is more than 40 sec ?
Antidyatel said :
“Videos of Buk missile ejecting plume for more than 40 sec can be found on youtube. So the likely spec is 50 seconds,”
That does not make sense. The video that shows the longest burn time is this one :
which shows a burn time of some 35 sec.
Not “more that 40 sec” as your claim.
And certainly your claim that “the likely spec is 50 seconds” is void of evidence.
That video of BUK flight seems to be slowed down.
Some videos are cut so that one can mistake target missile & BUK.
20s seem to be the true burn time for M1 missile.
Yep. Pretty hard to miss a missile popping up out of the clouds and then racing towards you from 20 degrees to the right.
I would also add that missile maximum speed is 860m/s. Based on trajectory provided by A-A for 24 km distance, the missile first climbed above 10 km within the first half of the flight and then the remaining distance went slightly down. Clouds in Ukraine are relatively low, with bottom at 2 km, as was reported. So we can estimate that the plume and missile were visible for the pilot for up to 20 seconds.plenty of time to say something about it.
but only if the pilots will take a look throught the front window…. to see a rocket comming with more than 1000m/s straight to them on that cloudy day.
they were on autopilot and dont need to look for other “cars” intersects their way 😉
According to the only data revealed by Dutch from voice recorder and atc they were informed of incoming traffic minutes before the hit, so they were looking around. Plus they were above clouds. And even 1000m/s rocket will take more than 10 seconds above clouds to reach them
Antidyatel said in the video it is more than 40 sec,
nope,video is mish mash off cut in videos,why would a 9M38M1 not be able to maneuver after burn out? you have a poor understanding off missiles if this is what you think.look up boost sustain,boost glide,this is basic stuff that after 11 months should not need debating
Are you serious? How are you envision to achieve boost-glide on those rockets with such small fins? Boost-sustain is for air-to-air missiles, that start nearly horizontally. Where do they find you for this job. The video is mish mash but it shows all the important characteristics for the discussion
your lack off knowledge on missiles is your problem not anyone elses,you are the one trying to redesign a known missile performance to suit your claim,your claim kinetic energy use is only for AAM is odd to say the least as their fins are even smaller than a SAMs,suggest you research your subject before simply stating whatever you desire no matter how contradictory to known facts
Your inability to read English is your problem. I didn’t say that missiles are not using kinetic energy. I said that boost-sastain is not used for SAM but is used for AAM. There is just no point of adding it there assuming it’s purpose. Discussion on fins was related to boost-glide claim of yours. And again that one is mainly used for winged rockets and has better application in extending the range of ballistic rockets. In SAM the fins are mainly for stabilization of the trajectory, while the nozzles of the engine are the main source of energy and steering. Can’t you just use your brains a little bit.
you did say they were not using kinetic energy,”Stone like behaviour is impossible for their purpose” is what you said,sounds like a poor grasp on kinetics to me,you also wondered how it could travel 30km with only 20 seconds of thrust! if you make a mistake own it,silly denials is well silly!4 control fins are located on the missile tail below the longer chords,this is 11 months after MH17 you should know this if you are debating
To RB2,
Are you implying that when you throw a stone it doesn’t have kinetic energy?
The rocket didn’t just need to reach 30 km distance, like a stone, but be in control if it’s trajectory at that distance and chase F-15. How hard is it to understand?
Antidyatel said,The rocket didn’t just need to reach 30 km distance, like a stone, but be in control if it’s trajectory at that distance and chase F-15. How hard is it to understand?
after burnout 9M38M1 is still capable off high g maneuvers around 10/13 g afaik until bleedoff thats the beauty of kinetic energy,u should remember its at its most maneuverable as fuel burns out and weight has decreased
RB2, I don’t want to be on the road when you are driving. What would be a speed of rocket that doesn’t have engine thrust from behind anylonger and then decides to make a 10/13g manuvor, as you phrase it? You can first ignore the dragging force against large surface area of the rocket that will be then traveling in the original direction of the rocket. Don’t want to overload you
suggest you study the subject,your displaying a rather childish desire to defend a claim that is clearly wrong,fact you did not know kinetic energy was used says enough really,pointless for you now to try and debate the finer points,you are unlikely to have learned much since
RB2, do you have PhD in pathetics? First you don’t know that a flying stone has kinetic energy, which is a fundamental reason for it to fly. Then you accuse other of not knowing about kinetic energy. It is not magic from Harry Potter. Don’t be so mistirious. But it is peculiar that after the source of energy is removed, the rocket according to you can perform manuvors of 10/13 G.
Antidyatel said “First you don’t know that a flying stone has kinetic energy, which is a fundamental reason for it to fly”
why are you rattling on about stones? you brought them up for some reason and hate to break it to you but stones don’t “fly”
reason i say you don’t know about kinetic energy is because you claimed SAMs do not use it and seemed to be stunned that they do,research should have been your first recourse not throwing a hissy fit,my intention was simply to correct your inaccurate claim 9M38M1 missile had a burntime off 50 seconds not to make you look silly,that you did yourself,move on and reserch before making claims,this site itself has a good article on the BuK that you should have read
I hate to brake it to you but connecting the phrase about stone and kinetic energy is totally your folly.
“you did say they were not using kinetic energy,”Stone like behaviour is impossible for their purpose” is what you said,sounds like a poor grasp on kinetics to me” so rattling about stones is purely your contribution to the discussion.
And stone does fly if you throw it. Sad that you are not aware of it. I had similar discussion before, by one “expert”. I wonder if by bleeding out you too ment trade of potential energy to for sustaining kinetic energy.
again you are dwelling on stones!
to be clear,you claimed 50 sec burn for BuK missile,this was countered as it had no basis in fact,you then said SAMs had no kinetic energy use and mentioned stones,why who knows,to get back to this wandering point you were wrong about burn rate and really should have been grownup enough to move on,this has got embarrassing
Let’s fixed one by one. Please quote the part which made you think so
“you then said SAMs had no kinetic energy use and mentioned stones”
Missile 9M38M1 have on-board power unit (electric turbo-generator runned by gunpowder) with worktime 45 seconds. So missile cannot flight longer then 45 seconds. Fail!
I didn’t say that engine works longer than 45 sec. I said that it works longer than 40 sec. So thank you for confirming my point. RB2 here was the one limiting the engine to below 20 seconds. 45 seconds confirms that the pilot will see the trail behind the rocket if it was coming from in-front. So thank you, my Maidawn friend, for making it clear for everyone
Engine for 9M38M1 missile have runtime 19.5+-3 seconds.
Movie which you posted is result of manipulating with 2 videos which explained by author – 2 different cameras, then editing. So playback speed unknown, cannot measure runtime by this video.
and i was correct,your tendency to alter facts as they suit you is odd to say the least,you even misread or misunderstood ADs comment!!
Correction.
19.35+-3.65 seconds
http://i.imgur.com/REQS2LD.jpg
To AD. So can you decide, worktime is 45 seconds or 20 seconds? Editing is obvious there, no doubt. But the launch time is consistent with other video of BUK. The sharp 90 turn is also obvious. So how are you accomplishing it with thrust available only for 20 sec. What is your link about, which rocket?
To RB2, how can I misread the sentence
“Missile 9M38M1 have on-board power unit (electric turbo-generator runned by gunpowder) with worktime 45 seconds.”
Which apparently means that the worktime is around 20 seconds. Is it some kind of special grammar that I’m not aware of
Antidyatel said how can I misread the sentence
“Missile 9M38M1 have on-board power unit (electric turbo-generator runned by gunpowder) with worktime 45 seconds.”
to control the missile and control surfaces not to power the rocket engine itself
So Rob and RBR are local resident experts I’m science and engineering. How lovely? One doesn’t know how to define physical quantities and has difficulties with multiplication/division. Another one wants to glide tubes with small fins. Beautiful
It is 24.3 km from Snizhne to last FDR point.
With MH17 at 10 km altitude, that means a minimum flight path of 26.3 km.
A 9M38M1 has a reported range of 35 km, which means MH17 was well within the range.
However, if the burn time of a 9M38M1 is only 20 sec as AD suggests, at then this missile will travel only 17 km on its own power, and would have to “glide” the remaining 10 km (in the case of MH17) and even 18 km of glide to reach its reported range of 35 km.
That does not add up.
So either the burn time of a 9M38M1 is longer than 20 sec (closer to the 35 sec suggested in that video) or MH17 was not shot down by a 9M38M1.
Rob:
“That does not add up.”
The Admin has previously posted articles discussing the operation of BUK-M1 which includes flight paths of its missiles fired at various targets at various elevations from various distances.
If the target is near, the missile approaches from below and in front and explodes just as it crosses above and in front of the target. If the target is more distant and well beyond the limit of thrust propulsion, the missile rises above the target and then glides on a quasi-ballistic trajectory from above down and in front of its target where it again intercepts it.
This was also part of the presentation of Almaz Antey in explaining the pitch of the missile and thus the pitch of its warhead annulus as it exploded changed based on the distance to target and could help determine the launch location if the location and elevation for the termination of flight were known.
Anything Almaz Antey said about the burn time of a 9M38M1 ?
Rob:
I don’t recall right now. The whole past year I’ve thought it was 20 seconds burn time, with 5 second for the accelerated burn to get it up to top speed, but I have no certain source for that byeond the internet.
burn time is 20 seconds give or take a few seconds due to fuel irregularities etc,time it on this video
Thanks RB2.
Couple of notes :
1) Trail become really faint after 20 sec. But is it really gone ?
2) Detonation is after 31 sec, but how far is that ?
3) If this missile really burns for only 20 sec, and really flies at 850 m/s then how come it is rated at 35 km (slant) range ?
Could it be that it is flying faster (mach 3 ; some 1000 m/sec) during its flight ?
Also, if an 9M38M1 missile burns for only 20 sec, why do we see this missile burn for 35 sec ?
Yes, I know that there is a second video under it. But that does not mean the video is faked. And the longer burn time explains the 9M38M1 range of 35 km a lot better than a 20 sec burn.
Wow. Everyone from this forum are also on Bellingcat. They blocked me. So sad. Please pass a message from me that they are morons. Funny how they demand not to trust Russian MOD, because they lied before. At the same time they trust wholeheartedly Ukraine MOD, even though the later was caught lying more often. But funniest thing is that Bellingcat’s boss was caught blatantly lying and fabricating data on Syria, particularly chemical attack in Damascus. So inability of self-reflection is too.staggering to give them any credit
Indeed both Russia and Ukraine lied. It is remarkable press and bloggers blaim Russia for a lot of things while Ukraine seems to be the nice guy. Many answers needs to be given to many questions. This website will not block anyone for having a different opinion. Please be polite towards eachother and keep on topic.
Thank you admin.
Still, there is that pesky question :
We know about the 5 lies by the Russian Defense Ministry in their war-room press conference on the 21th of July, but where did Ukraine lie ?
And I don’t mean issuing some confusing information which does not make sense, nor even some irrelevant statement that can be debunked.
I mean a relevant and important lie. A statement that is made by Ukraine that is verifiably false and they verifiably must have know that that statement was false, and relevant to what happened to MH17.
Like the Russian Ministry’s mis-dated satellite pictures, or the Russian Ministry’s accusations of SU-25 fighters on their radar images, or Russian Channel 1’s fake satellite picture with MH17 the size of the airport of Donetsk, or Almaz Antey’s claims that Russia no longer uses the (older) 9M38M1 missiles.
You know, that kind of lie.
Almaz Antey never said Russia no longer uses 9M38M1 missiles. That´s a LIE in itself.
The zaroshchenskoye site is under investigation. Bcat has proven nothing. Not with their faulty DEBUNKED methodology from the 5/31 report and not with their reasoning about the theater of operations of the Ukrainian army. That report will be proven faulty too.
Moreover, the SBU lied for example concerning the Luhansk vid, about place AND time.
They lied about BUK 312.
Probably their whole BUK trace is a lie.
In your book obviously these accounts are neither relevant nor debunked.
First sentence Hector said “Almaz Antey never said Russia no longer uses 9M38M1 missiles. ”
Yet here
http://www.rt.com/news/264421-buk-missile-manufacturer-investigation/
we read :
“BUK-M1 missiles not used by Russian army for years
“Production of BUK-M1 missiles was discontinued in 1999, at the same time Russia passed all such missiles that were left to international clients,” the company said, ”
and
“the manufacturer’s head, Yan Novikov, said that only the newer BUK-M2 systems with 9M317 missiles take part in modern parades,”
and the title
“MH17 likely downed by old BUK-M1 missile system not used by Russia – manufacturer”
Is RT lying, or Almaz Antey ? Or just you, Reban ?
Rob, you are giving a second hand source. Obviously you didn’t watch the vid of the press conference, so you keep lying in commission.
The way you are proposing a loaded question again says enough. When are you gonna try to use some logic and facts?
And, o yeah, the Ukrainians lied about their own possession of those missiles too (not relevant of course).
A-A did say 9M38M1 was no longer in use,stated data now availble by permission off the Russian MoD for exactly that reason,from 1.02.15 (should start on it)
You are right. It is mentioned in the question by RT that Russian state lifted secrecy because it would be no longer in use. I missed it.
But then again: What about the Ukrainian lies?
We could add a few:
They lied about a Russian false flag, shooting down MH17 by mistake targeting a Moskow-Larnaca flight as a provocation to an invasion.
They lied by issuing the socalled ¨confession¨ tapes, doctered to suggest rebels shot the plane down from Chernukino and putting on stage a guy named Grek, who was jailed by Azov few days earlier.
Hector it’s not a lie if you believe it’s true 😀
“A statement that is made by Ukraine that is verifiably false and they verifiably must have know that that statement was false, and relevant to what happened to MH17.”
1) claim that they didn’t bomb Lughansk and it was rebels misfiring MANPAD
2) same satellite imagery that Bellingcat is using for disproving Russian MOD. Ukrainians lied that it was from their satellite and they also mislabelled the dates.
3) Ukrainian army didn’t have BUK’s in the area.
4) Lughansk video was filmed by Ukr special operatives
5) after BOEING fell Ukr army launched offensive on the area instead of ceasefire
1) Evidence for a Luhansk June 2 airstrike is inconclusive. One big blast is inconsistent with an air strike. Multiple craters is inconsistent with a MANPAD firing.
2) Satellite images by the Russian Defense Ministry are PROVEN to be misdated. For a FACT. Besides, in which pictures exactly Ukrainians mis-date their counter evidence ?
3) If anyone could have provided evidence of Ukrainian BUKs in the area at the time, it would be the Russian Defense Ministry. They lied, and thus have no evidence.
4) Do you have any evidence that the Luhansk video was NOT taken by Ukrainian police or special operatives ? Please let us know.
5) That is a myth.
Seriously. Did you notice the smoke rising in the whole Park? Please show me your Bellingcat trained equilibristics to explain it in terms of misfired MANPAD as was claimed ny Ukrs. I wish your relative was in place of decapitated babushkas shown on second monuments the video that I’ve linked you previously. Your denial just exposes your fake demand for objectivity. At least Ukrs just lie through their teeth, we are used to it.
2) the misrepresentation of dates and source of information was exposed on August 1st.http://eng.mil.ru/en/analytics.htm
Bellingcat forgot to acknowledge that they were reusing the argument just a little bit more cleaned from inconsistencies.
3) youtube videos of Ukr BUKS in the ATO AREA were shown by Ukrs themselves on July 16th or after Slavyansk fell, the photo was used by Guardian.
4) video was not made by professional operatives. But useless to explain it to adepts of Brown Moses sect with leader worth of international tribunal for fabricating evidence of chemical attack in Damascus and nearly starting a big war, while perpetuating a civil war
5) so the reports of OSCE observers was a myth as well. You are getting pathetic
admin said “Indeed both Russia and Ukraine lied.”
Can you give us ONE verifiable lie from Ukraine that is relevant to what happened to MH17 ?
Rob: you are quit biased looking at your comments. There will be soon a blogpost with an overview of lies of Ukraine.
admin, I’m sure you can tell me which of my posts showed “”bias”.
And regarding your blogpost of overview of lies of Ukraine, will that be before or after your blogpost of overview of lies by Russia ?
Illovaisk and Debaltzevo are great Maidawn victories that will be remembered forever
Illovaisk : Putin promised a humanitarian corridor. Then kills some 500 Ukrainians.
Debaltzevo : Putin signed Minsk 2. Then kills a few hundred more Ukrainians and takes Debaltzevo.
I get it.
Ukraine have lied by ommission,off what they knew or thought they knew off BuK presence etc,Russia has lied on a totally different scale,from fake sat pics to clear lies during radar presser all designed to shift blame,both lied but scale and intent is different
Nonsens. They faked evidence, they invented an accusation. Not once but constantly.
Sorry, Hector, but the time for BS and lies is OVER.
From now on, when you make a statement, you need to back it up with evidence.
REAL evidence.
Bellingcat eventually blocks everyone who asks too many questions. Max van der Werff, Charles Wood, myself.
In the last discussion about the Zaroshchenskoye site they put through 1 dissident voice to attack him with all the pro-Bcat stooges and believers.
Dont worry, Russia Today always open to lie from useful idiots and paid trolls like Max van der Werff, Charles Wood, you.
The money does not stink!
User AD again used the word idiots. I unapproved his message. Next time he gets a complete ban for this site. Different opinions are fine. Insults and people calling others trolls because they have different opinion not.
Yeah, polite Russia can dont use bad words. Only BUK against B777.
Spot on, AD. Thank you.
It has been one year exactly.
I’ve lit a candle.
Remembering, I cried again.
And I realized, again, that there is only
ONE TRUTH
to what happened to MH17.
Not multiple as the Russians are suggesting.
Only ONE.
Everything else is a lie.
John McCain lied about this Rob. Or do you believe it is ok for Americans to lie?
Exactly what did John McCain lie about, Eric ?
At the 35 second mark John mcCain tells a lie. “The Ukrainains do not have that capability.” it’s just a straight out lie.
Are you upset that the Americans will tell such lies. Or is it ok for America to lie
Ukraina dont have capability for shot down MH17 because dont have SA-11 close enough. Is it hard to understand?
Yes,yes. It was rebels controlled territory. How do you define the later? By July 2014 the total number of rebels was below 10,000. In the territory attributed to them it will give less than a rebel per square km, if uniform distribution is applied. In reality rebels were focused in 5 locations. So the rebel controlled territory is close to be an auximoron.
Thought you miss my description about difference ukrainian SA-11 and russian SA-11.
Ukrainian SA-11 dont belong to GROUND FORCES and dont protect BATTLEFIELD. It is part of COUNTRY AIR DEFENSE (included in Air Force) and stay away from border or frontline (on range of missile strike). So ukrainian SA-11 dont invade deep into enemy territory never before or after.
Russian SA-11 belong to GROUND FORCES and serve to purpose – protect troops on BATTLEFIELD. SA-11 in Russia dont belong to COUNTRY AIR DEFENSE but infantry, motorised and armored troops on army/division/regiment level of organisation. You can easy find SA-11 in infantry division or armored regiment (Ground Forces) but Country Air Defense for Russia dont have SA-11 but SA-10 etc.
So im believe in travelling russian TELAR on territory controlled by russian proxies, but im cannot beleive in ukrainian TELAR invading on enemy territory with risk of damage or lost. For killing plane deep into DNR/LNR territory Ukraine dont need bring vulnerable TELAR behind enemy territory! Ukraine have SA-10 with enough range for launch missile from own territory!
So what was Ukr BUK doing in Slavyansk? Scaring Witch of the East (Strelkov)? You seem to be oblivious of your own lies
Here is one for you https://youtu.be/QBX0_IRpzzM
And another one https://youtu.be/vd9yzdCFIgI.
See 50th second. How I wish Bellingcat traced that one in particular till July 17th
And finally the finale. But I have a feeling you will attack a messenger and try to ignore the message https://youtu.be/HEZEI8OKg74
How many people died because of the American lies at Tonkin Gulf Rob Dekker?
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/17/mh-17-mystery-a-new-tonkin-gulf-case/
Sorry but talk about kremlin-paid Perry with his lie on consortiumnews forum. Here people for investigate MH17, not myths from politician.
Really, one of the few honest investigative journalists that exposed the real conspiracy by bloody policies of Reagan administration. Yes, let’s doubt him and trust in discredited Brown Moses. How.more.despicable can you get?
Perry lie too much and he know it, he never answer to debunk of his lie except “My source is ex-CIA officer told me blablabla”. It is bullshit! Cards on table! Im know ex- and present officers too, but why only Perry can spread ot lie by this trick?
So we have a guy who exposed one of the big conspiracies from Empire and that exposure was true vs. a very much discredited BSer and Maidawn like you. How to choose whome to trust? I’m very puzzled
Thank you for noting that Parry is arguing from authority.
And void of evidence.
AD said: ” Cards on table”, and my irony meter just broke 😀
2Antidyatel // July 18, 2015 at 11:28 pm //
So what was Ukr BUK doing in Slavyansk? Scaring Witch of the East (Strelkov)? You seem to be oblivious of your own lies
==========================================================
Really! What to do SA-11 TELAR of Ukrainian Army deep into own territory?!
Another example of russian lie for anyone who dont know about war in East Ukraine and cannot found Slovyansk on map.
Continue denial. Still the question is simple, Weybridge Ukr army bring Buks for capturing of Slavyansk? Did Strelkov have air fleet? Just this episode exposes western media argument that Ukrs wouldn’t use BUKs in the area because rebels didn’t have airforce. But Ukrs did bring those BUKS with ground forces. And now we.know why
Its kinda trolling! Can you show location of this photo and frontline position? Only after this i will talk about ukrainian SA-11. Bye-bye, dyatel!
Ukrainian AP journalists has kindly identified the location for us in his attempt to glorify Ukr victory in Slavyansk. Thank him.
Antidyatel, Slaviansk is at least 100 km away from MH17 intercept point.
So these Ukrainian BUKs are incapable of bringing MH17 down.
Why even bring it up ?
I’m with AD on this one. It sounds like you are simply trolling.
If two of you are incapable to follow through your statements it is not my fault. But let me try to show you some sense of Logic of why Slavyansk is brought into discussion.
AD said:”Ukrainian SA-11 dont belong to GROUND FORCES and dont protect BATTLEFIELD. It is part of COUNTRY AIR DEFENSE (included in Air Force) and stay away from border or frontline (on range of missile strike).”
Then question is, what Ukr BUK was doing in Slavyansk on the day Ukr forces recaptured it.
Antidyatel, Slaviansk is 100 km from the MH17 intercept point.
It is irrelevant.
Stop trolling.
Again for kindergarten dwellers. Ukrs moved in Buks into Slavyansk when they recaptured it. Meaning that Buks moved together with ground forces with no delay and were at frontline. Crossing the later at will was not a problem assuming the numbers and concentration points of rebels. And that was the start of my argument. If you’re incapable of ingaging the discussion better don’t involve yourself. Simple. Your Childish behaviour is pathetic. Arguments at sand pit are more focused than yours
“kindergarten dwellers” ?
“If you’re incapable of ingaging the discussion better don’t involve yourself. ” ?
“Your Childish behaviour is pathetic. ” ?
“Arguments at sand pit are more focused than yours” ?
To this question I would say they moved forward with the bulk of their forces to protect it for air defense from Russian forces that could cross to help their proxies at any time.
The articles and videos were not exactly clear if the Ukrainian military had the BUK at a forward base with the main unit or one outside the city by 10 to 20 km where he might have filmed it.
So you cannot say they are right on the front line.
The reporter could have been trabelling with the column and used footage from a rear base or protected area and mixed it in because the BUK launchers are different from standard military equipment.
Yes, they moved them forward, to keep the equipment all together and protected, but was it anywhere near the front line, you cannot prove that to me from any of the videos.
Your last video is suspect as well.
The 7-16-2014 date could mean anything.
Initial Upload date by Ukrainian troop or journalist, NSDC upload date,date the photos were taken, date they were last edited on a computer, anything.
Location is not exact either.
No clear proof from that, and he states over and over again, I am not alleging anything. BS.
Fare thee well
2Antidyatel // July 18, 2015 at 11:38 pm //
And finally the finale. But I have a feeling you will attack a messenger and try to ignore the message https://youtu.be/HEZEI8OKg74
=================================
Shariy! LOL! Kremlin liar as proof, OMG! Putin win!
Fck off dude with such proofs!
As predicted, you focused on a messenger and not on the message. I pity you, my dear ukropitek
Im cannot talk about Shariy. This man so stupid and so funny!
He show ukrainian video with Styla base which russian DoD even marked on map.
http://i.imgur.com/LlDH3ks.jpg
So who is lie better – russian DoD or kremlin lier Shariy? Choose one, LOL!
Again, simple. The video that he shows, what is the date on it?
Dude, you so stupid with your lie so even dont understand how funny your joke about SA-11 with search radar 36D6M Tin Shield!
Why you show Styla position and think it somehow can shot down B777? Your lie is very, very, very stupid!
Just follow your own arguments and stop typing profanities. Ukr army was carrying Buks around in the area during JULY. Bringing it within the range of attack was simple and would take 2-3 hours. With rebel numbers were too small to notice of react to such move. Rebels couldn’t anticipate such ugly atrocities from people like you. The fact that your generals screwed up the planning of attack on Saur Mogila.
Antidyatel said “Ukr army was carrying Buks around in the area during JULY.”
You have ZERO evidence for that statement.
You just made that up all by yourself.
Just like that, out of nowhere.
I call that trolling.
And the arrogance by which you make such statements is astounding, Antidyatel.
Really. I’ve never seen anything like this before.
Ok. Let me make it simpler for you. Here is original video https://youtu.be/Q3MomxNHnUA
The moment of interest is at 4:45.
And exactly WHEN and WHERE was that segment taken, Antidyatel ?
You had one year to figure it out.
The time for BS and lies is OVER Antidyatel.
Put up evidence or SHUT UP.
admin, why do you allow such obvious trolls to infest your site ?
The capitals will jot help you. The video was not given as an evidence that those BUKS downed MH17. It is evidence that Buks were in ATO acting against “rebel” airforce. If you can’t follow the line of the argument better don’t engage in the argument. Otherwise your brain will explode from 44g deceleration
Your arrogance is mind boggling.
And your argument so void of evidence.
Do you know about a term self-reflection?
Yes. use it all the time.
Just the memory of Evie, Otis, and Mo gives me the strength and resolve to find the truth, and stand up against against arrogant incompetent pricks like you who can’t even geolocate a single video.
Antdyatel,
You want to focus on the message (the video) ?
Fine.
1) Where was it taken ?
I mean, you had a year to geo-locate it.
2) When was it taken ?
This may be harder for you, but there are some clues.
Are you going to actually do some work and attempt to answer these questions ?
Or are you going to continue to troll around this fine blog hand waving and your aggressive bigotry void of evidence ?
“Or are you going to continue to troll around this fine blog hand waving and your aggressive bigotry void of evidence ?”
Nice to hear such things from real experts in biggotry. Are you still not noticing things from Lughansk bombing?
The point waste claim of Ukr journalists that those were Buks in ATO. AD, together with MCCAIN is trying to convince us that Ukrs didn’t have BUK’s in the area. And Styla, pointed by AD is within 60 km drive to Zaroshenskoe. Not a complex problem to reach by night or next day. There were road blocks on the roads connecting them on July 17 based on Google earth images. But in any case, the point is that Ukrs brought Buks with their ground units. Contrary to AD claims.
Thank you for confirming that your will NOT try to answer the questions of WHERE and WHEN the video was taken.
And that you prefer your hand waving and aggressive bigotry trolling void of evidence.
Again I repeat. The claim of discussion was that Ukrs do or do not bring their BUKS into the area. They did. Geolocation of that particular video is not important
Your bigotry on the Lughansk video was well received, trust me. So please look in the mirror before calling names
I am reluctant to further discuss the Luhansk June 2 because it is so clearly off topic.
admin, can you give us some guidance here ?
Then off topic was your earlier question about Ukr lies. Relevance to the topic is quote clear. We are discussing how Ukrs were using their military jets in the campaign.
Antidyatel said ” The claim of discussion was that Ukrs do or do not bring their BUKS into the area. They did. Geolocation of that particular video is not important”
If you don’t geolocate it you cannot claim that it was in the area.
Accidentally bumped in the following video from July 16, 2014
https://youtu.be/FP1FrgYkZ9Q
Good for Rob to see, as he trusts Ukrs that they didn’t fly in those days. More to this, the area is at Saur Mogila
Really, ROB!!!!
I Can’t wait to hear explanation, assuming the information given.in the article about Ukr air.activity in period from 14 July to 17 July
Maybe Rob can address this one.
http://lifenews.ru/news/136731
“23:02 – July 16, 2014 – Information from LifeNews Journalists
“The Militia shot down a Ukrainian aircraft on the border with Russia. A source in the law enforcement structures of the Rostov region told LifeNews that an airplane of the Ukrainian air force entered Russian airspace, performed a turn and departed in the direction of Ukraine; however, it was shot down by the Militia at the height of six thousand meters. The incident occurred at approximately 19:00 on July 16th. The fighter jet was observed over the territory of Russia. The plane could be seen as far away as Kujbyshevo. It was performing a turn around, intending to fly toward Ukraine; however, the militiamen were able to shoot it down. According to preliminary information, the pilot of the aircraft managed to catapult out. The shot down plane fell onto the territory of Ukraine.”
———————-
So was it shot down by rebel BUK on July 16? But Ukraine wasn’t flying, must be impossible. Plus we are told BUK in Lugansk had 3 missiles. Can’t shoot down two planes with one missile. Doubly impossible. And BUK wasn’t at Saur Mogila yet, because the SBU said so, they gave us convenient bread-crumb trail of it moving to Saur Mogila on July 17 even though not another soul saw or videoed it (I guess the rebels cleared the road from Krasnodon to Donetsk to Snizhne of all other cars and all adjacent apartments and houses of people except for a handful of SBU safehouses with SBU assets who could conveniently take pictures even though local SBU head Khodakovsky was a rebel). Except the SBU intercept tapes of rebels say a BUK was already at Saur Mogila and in use and a new one was joining. And other SBU/MIA claims speak of 4 or 5 BUK’s moving across the border (maybe by Teleporter, since pictures are only provided of one BUK on July 17). Its so hard to keep this story straight. If there are 4 or 5 BUK’s, did they all have Star Trek cloaking devices so that no one saw them in hundreds of kilometer’s of driving through Ukraine except the magical July 17 BUK?
So maybe Sushka on July 16 was shot down by Russia?
“On July 16th at about 19:00 yet another provocation was carried out from the Russian side. The military airplane of the armed forces of the Russian Federation carried out a missile strike against the Su-25 airplane of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which was performing missions on the Ukrainian territory. Our airplane was shot down. The pilot catapulted and was evacuated into safety by the AFU detachments. The pilot is OK,” – said Lysenko.
———————————
That is certainly a convenient theory, isn’t it? But nope, that is impossible too, Ukraine wasn’t flying, right? Andrey Lysenko must have been fantasizing. And if AA missiles are being fired, wouldn’t the airspace need to be closed to civil aviation? Plus the rebels said directly the Militia shot it down, as opposed to using passive voice in a statement when they speak of something done by Russia. Are we saying they lied and they didn’t shoot it down?
Isn’t the real lie the lie to the innocent travellers flying over Ukraine on civil aviation flights that it was a safe act even though Ukraine was flying combat sorties, had deployed its own BUK’s in active combat duty, and knew of rebel BUK’s either stolen or from Russia as well, and failed to close the airspace to unlimited because of greed and a casual disdain for risks to human life?
Since the Ukraine assures us MH17 was the full fault of rebels, Ukraine has no BUK’s, was not flying combat sorties, and all other theories are bunkum, do they also deny responsibility by Kiev for the safe use of airspace above the DNR and LNR by others? Do they recognize sovereignty of the DNR and LNR so as to put full blame on them (even though DNR and LNR said “Don’t fly in our skies.”)? Did they hand back control of DNR and LNR airspace to Rostov ATC as in Soviet days? If they want to go down that road, aren’t they invovled in a war of agression against those two places? Its not like people of DNR and LNR violently overthrew the government in Kiev and invaded Ukraine with the army and started bombing Ukraine with DNR/LNR air force and invested and shelled cities through seige warfare. What does the UN Charter say about right of self-determination and wars of agression and the right of self-defense? How can any self-respecting Dutchman or American, who both won their political and civil freedoms the hard way by peacefully declaring self-government in the face of tyrany and then beating off an agressive war against them by a superior power trying to maintain them in subjugation (Spain and Britain) deny the same right to people in Donbass? Are they not equally fully human with the same political rights as Dutchmen and Americans? Or are westerners extra special people with more rights? I know these are tough questions.
Who said An-26 shot downed by SA-11? How many missiles fired? Do you seen damage pattern?
AD:
It says Militia took credit for downing an SU-25 at 6000 m.
You tell me how it happened. Ukraine’s story is Russian AA missile.
Yes. Ukraine even has a tape of the ATC comms with that Russian jet on the 16th.
Where is Russia’s evidence that this plane was downed by a MANPAD or similar, at 5200 m ?
That video is from Sjeverny, at the border with Russia, from July 14.
Witnessing the downing of that AN26 from Russian territory.
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/11/unnoticed-video-of-26-downing-confirms.html
And yes. That is the same Sjeverny that the JIT believes is the location where the Russian BUK that downed MH17 entered Ukraine.
Thank you. At least something interesting from you. I indeed rushed to conclusions here. How is your enlightenment about Lughansk bombing and 44g claim?
Huh ?
You never contested my 44G calculations of drag force on debris (skin, doors, floor sections etc) from MH17.
You instead were trying to figure out the drag forces on a solid cube of aluminum, which you had immediately wrong by a factor of 100, and when you tried to calculate the ballistics of that solid cube, you just trough some number around, without specifying how you obtained these numbers, nor why they are relevant in the MH17 case.
And regarding the June 2 Luhansk incident, I’m waiting for admin to give us instructions on if we should discuss that topic or not, since it is so clearly off-topic.
Until then, please refrain from bringing it up as an argument.
Well Rob, we are all still waiting for you to explain how the 44G drage force you say is on the airplane debris seen at these locations made it end up flying backwards 3 to 7 km. Try the July 20 or 23 imagery if you have trouble seeing it.
Forward Fuselage Wall – 48° 9’8.22″N, 38°31’35.55″E; 2.7 km due north from your last FDR. That would be a 118 degree change in heading.
Large piece of fuselage – Large 48°11’14.67″N, 38°30’39.11″E, 6.9 km NNW from last FDR. 138 degree change in heading.
Large piece of fuselage – 48°11’4.46″N, 38°30’19.05″E, 6.5 km NNW from last FDR. 143 degree change in heading.
Forward Fuselage Roof – 48° 9’15.25″N, 38°31’36.23″E, 2.9 km NNW from last FDR. 118 degree change in heading.
I am also wondering what you make of the trails made by the debris in the wheat fields visible on 7/20. For example a bit of debris at this location – 48° 9’55.50″N, 38°31’29.86″E, which is 4.2 km from your last FDR location and has made a 95 m long trail to the WNW through the wheat at a heading of 72 degrees. So it flew backwards with a change of bearing counterclockwise of 121 degrees then changed bearing 75 degrees clockwise and tumbled through the field?
We are also waiting for you to provide a citation of the numbers for the last FDR and how they were determined.
Who is “we” ?
Everyone else here who reads what you write.
Everyone else here already read what I wrote where these pieces end up and why :
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-4664
Seems you are the only one you who didn’t.
Yes, you wrote about 10 cm x 10 cm pieces. I am referring you to large and heavy 3 to 5 m x 2 to 4 m pieces and human bodies.
Please address how they fell (disaggregating the vectors) 2 to 4 km BACKWARDS from the direction of original motion and 1.5 to 5.5 km sideways to the left.
Andrew said “Yes, you wrote about 10 cm x 10 cm pieces.”
Sorry, but no. That was Antidyatel, who wrote :
“Andrew was talking about small pieces. So let’s assume 10 cm by 10 cm, or 10^-4 m^2. ”
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-5196
which shows not just how again you turn the facts around, but also that Antidyatel puts words in your mouth that you never said, and you don’t seem to mind.
Why, Andrew ? Why do you continue to fight the laws of physics when it comes to MH17, and continue (this is the third time) to turn the facts around about who said what ?
Andrew said :
“Large piece of fuselage – Large 48°11’14.67″N, 38°30’39.11″E, 6.9 km NNW from last FDR. 138 degree change in heading.
Large piece of fuselage – 48°11’4.46″N, 38°30’19.05″E, 6.5 km NNW from last FDR. 143 degree change in heading.
”
You did not mention these two locations before, and neither are they mentioned in the WSJ map that you used to make your point.
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/
What makes you think these spots show a “large piece of fuselage” ?
Do you have a picture of these pieces ?
And how “large” do you believe these pieces are ?
Rob:
The large piece nearly 7 km back measures 3.4 by 2.7 m. That is the size of a large garage door.
The piece of the fuselage roof meausres 5.3 by 4.3 m.
Since it floated in the wind for a long time, 7 km away from the DSB final FDR point, these pieces are likely light. Something like the plastic cabin wall liner.
What makes you think these pieces are “a large piece of the fuselage” ?
Rob:
“What makes you think these pieces are “a large piece of the fuselage” ?”
Some of the closer pieces are definitely identified as large pieces of fuselage. The further away piece is a large white blob that I haven’t yet seen identified. I’m guessing it is either aircraft skin or an interior plastic part as you mention simply from its size. Its obviously not a seat cushion or some luggage.
Have you ever let go of a string and let a kite travel away by itself?
I do not know and it appears you do not know how fast and what direction winds were blowing at what altitude.
If it had just crossed a weather front the winds there are highest and can carry heavy object a long distance.
I imagine you have seen various tornado picking up houses and carrying them and then tossing them to the ground miles away.
A lightweight titanium or aluminum product the size of a garage door should be no problem.
Especially if their was jet stream of some sort or higher elevation winds.
Fare thee well
Just for information.
Ukrainian SA-11 regiments based on Styla, Chuginka and Volnovakha.
These points deep in the ukrainian own territory and situated near border (and for defend border) with Russia.
Range from SA-11 positions to Russia at least 35 km (strike range of 9M38M1 missile)
http://i.imgur.com/7J0G0bu.png
Russian DoD on briefing about MH17 shown their intel data about wroking search radars (not TELAR but TAR) with same positions – Style, Chuginka, Volnovakha. This info was right because TAR wroking during long time and in all directions so 3rd country satellties, AVACS and COMINT can detect their location with high probability.
http://i.imgur.com/bfCuNss.jpg
Shariy with his video at July 16 shown one of this position equipped by working TAR 36D6M. Working search radar mean (see above) his location is well known.
Now question – how SA-11 which shown on video at July 16 with working search radar near can be blamed for shot down MH17 if closest position stay on range more then 100 km (triple range of 9M38M1 msisile) from B777 death?
It is weird logic of Kremlin bots! They trying to show ukrainian SA-11 stayed far from MH17 shot down point is same as their separatists/terrorists SA-11 TELAR near Snizhne.
100km (Ukraine) with 20km (russian terrorists). Hard to choose right?
in other words Rob again has no answer so he invents an excuse
I guess you missed the discussion about the drag equation as it applies to debris from MH17.
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-5193
Andrew still did not address why he believes these laws of physics don’t apply in the case of MH17.
And that these laws of physics explain a debris field consistent with the last FDR point as determined by the Dutch Safety Board.
Rob:
Then use the laws of physics to explain the proposed motion of the debris noted above. Also, provide a citation for the last FDR position you note with coordinates and please describe or link to a description of how it is determined since I understand the FDR has no GPS and Ukraine has no ADSB.
After all, I am not the one proposing the imparting of backwards to the direction of flight ballistic trajectories. I shouldn’t need to provide proofs of your theory. And I can’t critique what you do not demonstrate.
Mmm. Turning the facts upside down again, Andrew ?
Let me remind you that it was YOU who calculated that the last FDR point was at Pol’ove,
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-4500
which is some 10 km away from the Dutch Safety Board last FDR location.
That is when I pointed out that you forgot to include the drag equation, which started the whole discussion that you now seem to want to re-cycle again.
Let me once again point out, as I did before
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-4664
that, given the laws of physics and specifically the drag equations, and the revailing winds at the time, that the MH17 debris field is entire consistent with the Dutch Safety Board’s report of the last FDR location, and INCONSISTENT with your Pol’ove intercept location.
Mmm. Turning the facts upside down again, Andrew ?
Let me remind you that it was YOU who calculated that the last FDR point was at Pol’ove,
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/damage-of-mh17-does-not-rule-out-a-launch-from-zaroshenskye/#comment-4500
which is some 10 km away from the Dutch Safety Board last FDR location.
That is when I pointed out that you forgot to include the drag equation, which started the whole discussion that you now seem to want to re-cycle again.
As pointed out before, given the laws of physics and specifically the drag equation, and the prevailing winds at the time, that the MH17 debris field is entire consistent with the Dutch Safety Board’s report of the last FDR location, and INCONSISTENT with your Pol’ove intercept location.
Rob:
“which is some 10 km away from the Dutch Safety Board last FDR location.”
And I explained why I thought this might be so based on the time aloft of the main section of the plane on radar and the speed reported of 200 km/h and thus the amount of total motion required to end up in Hrabove based on the speed and time aloft. You didn’t dispute any of those factors. Polove is just a convenient reference for the end of the debris trail, the plane may have been closer to Orlovo-Ivanivka which is in the same vicinity.
“That is when I pointed out that you forgot to include the drag equation, which started the whole discussion that you now seem to want to re-cycle again.”
I didn’t forget drag equations. Pieces with different amounts of drag fell forward and down based on their drag to different locations. Those with more drag fell quicker and travelled less far forward. I am not proposing them wafting in the wind on a ballistic trajectory where an item falls 10 km down but 7 km NNW when it was originally travelling very fast to the ESE. Do you suppose the debris fell in one minute to the 7 km mark? That would be a speed of 420 km/h. Where did that velocity come from? How about 2 minutes? Still 210 km/h. How about 4 minutes? 105 km/h. So the debris started at 915 km/h SSE and changed its velocity vector because of wind to 100 km/h NNW or possibly much, much more. How fast was that wind anyway, and what directions at what altitudes? You especially need to explain how dense human bodies were blown multiple kilometers in the wind to north of Petropavlivka.
On the other hand, I think the wind would have blown them to the left side as they went forward, which is consistent with the debris trails visible in the field on July 20 which have a general trajectory between 75 and 90 degrees.
If we use a wind speed of 60 km/h, we get 1 km vector of travel in the direction of the wind during the presumed ~1 minute it would take a piece without lift to fall from 10 km. If you want the fall to take longer you are proposing the debris piece has some sort of lift. Your beloved drag equation mostly serves to limit the forward motion and is rather indeterminate due to changing drag as the piece tumbles in the air.
“As pointed out before, given the laws of physics and specifically the drag equation, and the prevailing winds at the time, that the MH17 debris field is entire consistent with the Dutch Safety Board’s report of the last FDR location, and INCONSISTENT with your Pol’ove intercept location.”
You claimed this from authority with no proof at all.
You still have not provided any sort of citation of the supposed last FDR location or how it was derived.
Please also reread this quote from the Canrfield paper I cited (“Revisiting trajectory analysis – Evolving the Cranfield model”):
“NATO and the US DOD define a ballistic trajectory as the “trajectory traced after the propulsive force is terminated and the body is acted upon only by gravity and aerodynamic drag.” [28]. Clearly this definition is appropriate when considering wreckage created through midair breakup. Exceptions to this definition would include an aircraft which is damaged but still producing propulsive force and components which are capable of generating lift. The latter point is an important one – in the subsequent analysis, the components will be considered to be acted on by drag alone; no lift force will be included. In addition, the ‘tumbling’ of parts whilst falling will also be discounted and instead replaced by a single drag coefficient.
“Both of these assumptions are deviations from reality. Whilst they might accurately describe the behaviour of a high mass, compact body (one with a high value of ballistic coefficient – see later), a lighter part with a large area capable of producing lift (such as a section of fuselage skin with stringers) is clearly very likely to produce lift and tumble as it falls such as a sheet of cardboard might do if dropped.
“Any trajectory model must depend upon some estimation of the drag coefficient of the part, which is often difficult to achieve. This is compounded by the fact that when objects tumble they effectively present a variable drag coefficient. Given the unavoidable inaccuracies inherent in drag coefficient estimation, it is arguable whether a more advanced calculation technique is necessary. However, there is no reason not to minimize as many errors as possible, as long as the other inaccuracies and limitations are understood.”
Andrew, I give up.
You believe that the last intercept point was at Pol’ove, and you do not believe that the Dutch Safety Board’s readout of the MH17 FDR is correct, then fine.
I tried reason, I tried the laws of physics, I explained the drag equation, and how it applies to debris of various density, I even calculated for you how far pieces of debrit fly using your own assertions of debris density. Besides that I pointed out 3 cases where you mis-quoted what I stated.
Nothing seems to work, and you continue to blurt out unfounded numbers.
So, yes. I give up. You win.
Rob:
“Andrew, I give up.”
Okay, just in time for me to have reconsidered the radar data and come up with a theory that could reconcile most of the radar speeds and locations and the supposed last FDR location (I’d still like a citation of it). The theory would require break-up to occur 15 seconds after warhead explosion and would need to assume all debris to the NW of that point was wind borne up to 10.5 km in that direction by various prevailing winds at elevation. In this case, the heaviest and most aerodynamic part, the cockpit, falls first, and the more sail-like fuselage parts blow further NW.
This theory requires disregarding the speed read out of the Rostov radar from 16:20:19 to 16:20:59 as being unreliable due to extreme change in course of the plane and its disintegration causing confusion of the radar as to what its target was. If we can’t make that assumption, then we can’t reconcile the speed data and locational data without putting the last FDR point further NW than where you think.
So don’t think I am trying to say you were wrong, I think you can be right, but various assumptions need to be made to reconcile all data.
America could easily answer who did it.The fact that America is covering up who did it means we know who is responsible.
If Russia did would America keep covering up? No.
If the separatists did it would america keep covering up? no.
If Ukraine did it would america cover it up? Yes.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/22/obama-should-release-mh-17-intel/
“..we former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of some 360 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence provide our perspective on the issue and request for a second time that the intelligence over the downing be made public to counter the fuzzy and flimsy evidence that has over the past year been served up – some of it based on “social media.””
Who shot down MH17? USA? Why you appeal to USA info if it is already dont matter with damage pattern and pellets of SA-11 missile from Snizhne?
USA info was usefull till found first cockpit part with holes from X-shape strike elements. So all kremlin trolls with Air-toAir missile from ukrainian Su-25 become as liars.
Retired intel officers must know how vital is ability to spy enemy objects or gather information. They must remember hard choice of Allies aboout Coventry Blitz. Allies choose lost 1 city but dont reveal their intel source, but it is win a war.
Eric said (first sentence) “America could easily answer who did it. ”
Where is your evidence that “America could easily answer who did it.”
Eric said “The fact that America is covering up ….”
HELLOO, Eric ! You can’t claim that America is covering up anything unless you show at least SOME evidence that America knows who did it.
So why don’t you start with that ?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/we-saw-the-hit-we-saw-plane-disappear-says-john-kerry-on-mh17/story-fn59nm2j-1227022300618
John Kerry said: “We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory, we saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.”
The US admit they have more evidence but will only give us social media crap.
In that video they admit they have evidence but they are going to cover it up.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/we-saw-the-hit-we-saw-plane-disappear-says-john-kerry-on-mh17/story-fn59nm2j-1227022300618
John Kerry said: “We saw the take-off. We saw the trajectory, we saw the hit. We saw this aeroplane disappear from the radar screens. So there is really no mystery about where it came from and where these weapons have come from.
Kerry’s statements match quite nicely with this graph of the trajectory of the missile :
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/20140722_MH17.jpg
;
The US admit they have more evidence but will only give us social media crap.
In that video they admit they have evidence but they are going to cover it up.
Eric said “The US admit they have more evidence ”
No Eric. The US did not say that.
Your reference just shows that some knucklehead called Matt Lee is still convinced that the Russian Defense Ministry actually presented credible evidence.
They did not, and instead FABRICATED their evidence, as has long been apparent
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2014/07/24/caught-in-a-lie-compelling-evidence-russia-lied-about-the-buk-linked-to-mh17/
Matt Lee did not do his homework.
Yes Rob the US did say that. When asked why they are on;y talking about social media evidence and other evidence.
At the 1 minute 22 mark the US spokeswoan says there is social media informations and other information they have…she says “OUT THERE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN AND ALSO FROM OUR INFORMATION”
They are COVERING UP this other information.
At around the 3 minute mark she is asked if there is more than social media evidence and she says “YES THERE IS”, but refuses to disclose it.
Sorry Rob, you are wrong
THE USA IS COVERING UP. There can only be one reason to COVER UP.
The Ukrainians did it. Otherwise the USA would not COVERUP
Ah, even worse, Matt Lee quotes the Russian Defense Ministry as saying “We’ve shown our radar images which show Ukrainian planes near … they have!”
While in fact these Russian Defense Ministry images show the pieces of MH17 falling to the ground with 298 peoples falling to their death.
It does not get mor hypocritical than that, and Matt Lee is borderline committing journalistic fraud by suggesting that these radar images show Ukrainian fighter planes.
Rob the biggot is striking again. What time was MH17 hit according to Dutch preliminary report? At what time Russian radars noticed a military plane gaining height in close proximity of MH17?
You still didn’t explain why Ukrs were bringing Buks to the front line of the conflict, which was witnessed in Slavyansk.if they did it there what could stop them bringing BUK from Stela to position south of Torez?
Antidyatel:> What time was MH17 hit according to Dutch preliminary report?
——————————–
I’m afraid that in the preliminary report there is not given time of boeing decay.
According to the data shown by admin here https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-speed-and-altitude-unchanged-for-44-seconds-after-fdr-and-cvr-stopped/ time of decay was 17:20:47,
On the Russian sketch of Boeing route I marked this point as an air to air missile.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img905/2398/kbMGXx.jpg
This is consistent with my theory of multi-attack. BUK , canon salvo,, air to air missile .
I tried to add comment yesterday but it is still in moderation. I guess that admin left for the weekend and I can only add brief comments. This entry is for checking the notation length allowed for me.
OK I was right . Therefore, the work of yesterday’s I divided in the following two:
I’m afraid that in the preliminary report there is not given time of boeing decay.According to the data shown by admin here https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-speed-and-altitude-unchanged-for-44-seconds-after-fdr-and-cvr-stopped/ time of decay was 17:20:47,
On the Russian sketch of Boeing route I marked this point as an air to air missile.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img905/2398/kbMGXx.jpg
This is consistent with my theory of multi-attack. BUK , canon salvo,, air to air missile .
Rob:
The extraneous mark interpreted as a military aircraft is clearly visible on the Russian radar tape as an additional circle target. There is only one mark (not several), and it stays in the air long after the MH17 has disappeared from the screen. If it is MH17 debris, shouldn’t it be tracking NW in the wind to stay in the air that long? But that isn’t the direction of its movement.
Hi Andrew, thank you for your response.
For starters, here is the Russian Defense Ministry’s press conference :
The section about the radar images starts at 15:56.
Next, let’s make sure we are talking about the same thing.
At 19:35 a little circle first shows up right behind MH17.
Is that the “additional circle target” that you are talking about that is supposed to be that SU25 fighter plane that the Russians have been talking about for a year now ?
Hi Rob:
I am referring to this tape.
The extraneous mark appears at 1:49 to the southeast of MH17’s mark. It first tracks northeast with MH17, then turns around and starts moving southeast near Pelahiivka. You can tell, because it is southeast of a coordinate read-out mark used in the ATC tape of northing and easting. It then makes a circle moving north, then southwest then northeast again then turns again and starts moving southeast then south-southeast. Then it seems to stand still and the tape comes to an end.
If it is debris, what is it doing so far south of the debris field over Pelahiivka when the rest of the debris is off far to the northeast and northwest, carried by the wind as you argue? I have seen an A-10 Warthog make tight manuevers at low speed such as seen on this ATC tape (except for the standing still part – could that possibly be the mark climbing vertically? – seems far-fetched), I would think an SU-25 could do the same since it is the same aircraft functionally.
There is also an extraneous mark without transponder data across the Russian border starting at 1:39 that moves slowly towards the Marynivka border crossing and dissapears at 3:04. Possibly it is a observation drone given its low speed. Obviously it is not plane debris.
Hi Andrew,
I’m not sure why you presented that really fuzzy, low resolution tape.
You can hardly read the numbers in that video.
Why not use the link I used, which is much clearer.
Anyhow, there are a couple of things to point out.
Let’s start with the location of that “extraneous mark”.
At 2:00 in your video (19:15 in mine) the Russian Defense Ministry drops a marker right next (east) of that “additional circle target” that you point out.
The marker reads 304 degrees (azimuth), 54.26 km (distance) from the TAMAK waypoint. If you draw that 304/54.26 from TAMAK on GoogleEarth, you end up between Rozsypne and Habrove, and clearly NORTH of Pelahiivka.
The circle your refer to is west of that marker, so the circle is likely somewhere over Rozsypne, and clearly NOT south of Pelahiivka.
Does that make sense ?
P.S. Interesting that radar target across the border in the Kuybyshevo area.
Which Russian army/airbore devision was operational in that area on the 17th ?
Hi Rob:
“If you draw that 304/54.26 from TAMAK on GoogleEarth, you end up between Rozsypne and Habrove, and clearly NORTH of Pelahiivka.”
I agree. But that distance is to the mark of MH17 from TAMAK. You can clearly see that a couple of seconds later when the read out changes to 54.31/304 and the extraneous mark is located to the southeast and almost tangent to the line to TAMAK.
At 20:19 in your referenced link, there is a coordinate readout of 48^06’53″N, 38^37’16″E. This is just into the woods at the north side of Pelahiivka, and the mark is to the southwest of that point.
At 21:35 there is a coordinate readout of the extraneous mark of 48^07’07” N, 38^37’23” E which is NNE towards Hrabove from the previous coordinate read out. At 22:13 there is another coordinate readout of the extraneous mark at 48^06’56” N, 38^36’40” E. This is over the north end of Pelahiivka. The looping route taken between those points appears to give it a speed of around 300-350 km/h. Overall, the mark appears to fly in a counterclockwise looping pattern over Pelahiivka and north of Pelahiivka during and after the crash. If you plot the coordinate readouts on Google Earth and interpolate the rest of the movement that is visible on the tape this becomes more clear. IF (big if) this were a plane, the pilot would be getting a clear view of the the entire wreck field from a safe location away from the debris fall by making a tightly turning loop where the plane would be banked inward.
I don’t have any idea what Russian units may have been across the border at that area at that time, if any. It is also possible it is a rebel drone sent to fly in Russian airspace to protect it. The Russian mark is moving at around 180 km/h which fits with the speed of modern Russian drones like the Yakolev Pchela and the Kamov KA-137. I’m amazed that after a year such basic things as a extraneous mark are still waiting to be noticed.
Andrew said :
“Rob said :“If you draw that 304/54.26 from TAMAK on GoogleEarth, you end up between Rozsypne and Habrove, and clearly NORTH of Pelahiivka.”
I agree. But that distance is to the mark of MH17 from TAMAK.”
That is right.
The “additional circle target” first appears (2:00 in your video (19:15 in mine) ) right behind the mark of MH17, which has already slowed down to 363 km/hr and is moving to the north-east, towards Hrabove.
The manual targets (indeed as you mention at 304/54.26, 48^06’53″N, 38^37’16″E. and 48^06’56″ N, 38^36’40″ E and 48^06’56″ N, 38^36’40″ E, in that order) dropped during the 3 minute period (19:15 to 22:13) thereafter, are all within 700 meter of each other,
So even a full circle movement of that “additional circle target” over the 3 minutes after it appears is less than 700 meters*pi / 3 minutes = 730 meters/minute or about 44 km/hr at most.
Finally, note that there are at least 3 if not 4 individual radar reflection points visible around that “additional circle target” over that 3 minute period, and they disappear from the radar at different times (the ones closest to the north-east side disappear first).
So, in summary, multiple objects appear to split-off from the main MH17 target, while that has already slowed down to 336 km/hr, and moving north-east towards Hrabove) when they first appear (2:00 in your video (19:15 in mine)). These object initially follow MH17’s main radar reflection, but slow down quickly thereafter, and over a 3 minute period, one by one disappear from the radar, while moving less than 40 km/hr.
What oh what could that be ?
Rob:
The path of the extraneous mark looks more oblong too me, which is why I came up with a higher speed. I will have to re-examine more when I have more time.
those who wonder about Robs capacity to never question US sources might like to read the following piece,
“The question is: why do Americans not only sit silently while the lives of innocents are destroyed, but also actually support the destruction of the lives of innocents? Why do Americans believe “official sources” despite the proven fact that “official sources” lie repeatedly and never tell the truth?”
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/07/23/eroding-character-american-people-paul-craig-roberts/
This site become to place of trolling with politic, rumors and myths. Usual thing with admin which believe to lie.
Why don’t you stay on Bellingcat? It should be more comfortable for you as they ban any opposing view.
I hope that all of you will be tried eventually in international court. together with your guru Elliot Higgins for falsification and blatant manipulation that lead to hundreds of thousands deaths in Syria and Lybia, with approaching catastrophe in Ukraine.
I agree, AD.
The comment section of this blog seems to have been reduced to a hotbed of arrogant Russian conspiracy theorists repeatedly blaming Ukraine, or the West, or the US for the MH17 atrocity, without EVER providing ANY evidence.
For a long time, I gave “admin” of whathappenedtoflightmh17.com the benefit of the doubt.
After all, he did provide a large amount of evidence in this case (although not always properly referenced).
But when he started to say that “there are no facts”, and that “both Russia and Ukraine lied so both cannot be trusted. ” I started to wonder if he even had any confidence in his own findings. That raised a yellow flag.
And when he stated “There is no data on the flying activities of Ukraine Air Force at July 17. ” a red flag went up.
After all, the Russian Defense Ministry CLEARLY provided data (if not evidence) that NO military planes (neither from Russia nor from Ukraine) were in the air at the time MH17 was shot down.
So Rob the BIGOT, which is by definition is a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions, is complaining that nobody likes him. And this is a person who relies on Ukrs lying all the time and pushing agenda of USA, that lied historically and was caught lying so many times. And more amazingly you push propaganda of a person that was caught deliberately fabricating the evidence on chemical attack in Damascus and who should be tried in international court as war criminal -Elliott Higgins. Shameful you are beyond repair.
But after you complained about moderator so much, will you still try to ask his help from answering simple argument about Lughansk bombing on June 2, 2014 – a clear evidence of Ukr lie and your disgusting attempt to peddle their propaganda that it was “attack on aircon”, while denial is futile. Your fake demand for balance in discussion is totally discredited by your intolerance.
After you wipe that foam off your mouth, Walter, you may want to summarize what your point is, exactly.
Seeing your own madness in others is one sign of schizophrenia. Please go see a doctor before it is too late.
The arguments were simple: 1) you requested to give examples of when Ukrs currently in charge in Kiev lied in this conflict. Lughansk bombing was given as example. Instead of condolescing decapitated babushkas you went into actually promoting the lie of Kiev about the incident. It was disgusting
2) AP and Ukr news reported BUK systems entering Slavyansk after it fell. Meaning that Ukrs were bringing those systems together with advancing army. In early July Ukrs attempt suicidal push to cut rebels from Russian border. It is likely that within that southern corridor some of the BUKS were brought in. Rebels were busy surrounding that invading force and didn’t have force to man boundary of “rebel controlled territory” – an imaginary term defined solely by Kiev’s criminals. BUKS that were likely attached to those devisions (based on Slavyansk example) could freely move nortg to any position they like. This argument make your mouth foaming and you started throwing the word bigotry left, right and center.
Antidyatel:
“In early July Ukrs attempt suicidal push to cut rebels from Russian border.”
The rebels blew up the border and seized most military bases within Donetsk and Lugansk at the beginning of June which is when they got serious weaponry. The southern border push was from mid-June before the ceasefire at the end of the month and had already reach Dolzhansky by the ceasefire. The rebels were helpless to stop it in June as they could not seize Artemovisk tank base and had a limited amount of armored vehicles with which to operate and a lack of troops. They were so desperate for tanks that they were removing T34’s from WWII pedestals and putting them into service. Against the southern border offensive they mainly used artillery to harrass the Ukrainians and force them to stay along the broder, but they could not stop the advance, which reached all the way to Krasnodon and Izvarino in early July.
“It is likely that within that southern corridor some of the BUKS were brought in.”
No, I don’t think that was likely. Russia gave a map of where they detected BUK’s that no one in Ukraine has ever disputed, and they showed none deployed in the south beyond Zaroshchenske.
“Rebels were busy surrounding that invading force and didn’t have force to man boundary of “rebel controlled territory””
This is true. One of the primary reasons for withdrawing from Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Konstantyanivka, and Artemovisk was that the rebels were using 3 tactical battalions worth of troops in that sector occupying the towns and manning checkpoints. These troops were desperately needed by them for the offsensive south from Saur Mogila to trap the southern border troops and more importantly their armored equipment and to strengthen defenses near Donetsk. In fact, they were deployed in that manner almost immediately. Battallion Slavyansk 1 went to Donetsk, Slavyansk 2 to Ilovaisk, and Slavyansk 3 to Torez/Saur Mogila area. Shock Battalion Kalmius was also deployed to Saur Mogila.
Looking at this strategically, the rebels not only sacrificed those towns in favor of Donetsk and the Southern Border, they also exposed the Ghost Battalion in Lisychansk, Rubizhne, and Severodonetsk, which was suddenly tasked with guarding the very valuable Russian owned oil refinery and related petrochemical industries there on the front line instead of safely in the rear of the action. These ended up being captured within two weeks because the power of the Ukrainian 6th and 8th Army Corps was used in a frontal assault and a cutting of the rear supply lines of this region. However, although they lost that entire area and subsequently Debaltsevo and Bile, they were able to starve the Southern Border of food, fuel, and ammunition, destroy the effectiveness of the units there, and most importantly capture their mechanized equipment. Tanks, self-propelled mortars, Grad trucks, and APC’s are useless without fuel and ammunition, and holding Suar Mogila and pinching the border at Marynivka took away their supply. The capture of this haul of equipment was what lead to subsequent rebel success in August and September, so the sacrifices paid off for them.
All that said, the importance of the Saur Mogila area shouldn’t be underestimated for the rebels. If they had a BUK, putting it somewhere near there would make a lot of sense. That doesn’t mean I think they had one there, but this was the focal point of all their strategic plans for the war on July 17.
Antidyatel said :
1) Lughansk bombing was given as example. Instead of condolescing decapitated babushkas you went into actually promoting the lie of Kiev about the incident. It was disgusting
There is some clear evidence that this June 2, Luhansk incident is fake. A set-up melo-drama. I’m not kidding.
2) There is NO evidence that the Ukrainian army brought BUK systems within range of MH17 at any time during the 17th. Nothing.
Rob said:
“There is some clear evidence that this June 2, Luhansk incident is fake. A set-up melo-drama. I’m not kidding.”
Are you serious? The video that I’ve sent you shows number of women with heads blown out and limbs severed. Did you even see the whole video https://youtu.be/T8IG_xm6Gbo. From second minute the aftermath is shown in full details. You are really shameless to think that it was staged melodrama.
And of course Ukr fighter jet that was filmed from two independent locations releasing rockets was just hired by rebels to.discredit disgusting scum that you associate yourself with.
2) There is plenty of evidence that Ukrs brought BUKS to the frontline. When situation became dire for them in southern corridor they were desperate and nothing could stop them to move in the BUK into the “rebel controlled territory” as defined by Kiev scum. They were the only one to benefit from that crime and by all logic should be suspects. Allowing instead them to be in charge of investigation is preposterous, assuming that so far they are the main suppliers of evidence, which makes investigation biased and not independent. If you don’t see the problem,…. I’m not surprised.
Andrew, you’re correct. It should be June. I was relating to 4th July when Slavyansk was left in response of that south offensive.
If Russians didn’t detect BUKS in that region it doesn’t mean that BUKS were not there, it only means that they were not scanning the sky. After Ukr official accused Russian fighter jet of shooting down Ukr SU-25 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28345039, the BUKS were logically moved into position by Ukrs and made ready to shoot. Assuming the distances we are talking about it will be a two hour job for any location. Then there are 2 scenario:
1) Ukr army didn’t do any exercise with SAM after 2001 disaster. They didn’t even know if those BUKS are still working. So soldiers were asked to practice aiming at passenger liners and practice went too far with accidental launch. Due to inexperience the shok from launch also prevented them to stop the rocket on time by switching off the radar.
2) certain forces in Ukraine (supervised by let’s destroy the world Nuland/Kagan family) got a “brilliant” plan of how to stop rebel offensive and put the real pressure on Russia at the same time (till then sanctions on Russia were inessential). Buk was moved into “rebel” controlled territory and shoots at MH17.
This scenario is less problematic in comparison with those proposed against Russia or rebels. Even if later had Buk.
Also it is interesting to note that story of smuggling Russian BUK across the border and then bringing it back would involve a large number of people. Western propaganda assures us that Russia is corrupt to the core (mostly it is). How is it that noone was bribed till now to expose that elaborate scheme or any scheme that allowed smuggling of heavy weaponry by Russians across the border.
Just image that someone would say “Oh, yes ! Russia smuggles heavy weaponry across the border all the time”.
Would you think that that person was bribed and tell a lie ?
Or would you think that that person was bribed and tell the truth ?
Or would you think that that person was not bribed but tell a lie anyway ?
Or would you think that that person was not bribed and tell the truth ?
Do you see why it is NECESSARY to sustain your argument with EVIDENCE, Antidyatel ?
To Rob,
You had no problem believing Shaun Walker from Guardian – the primary witness of Russian tanks crossing the border who unfortunately forgot to take a camera with him and forgot to indicate the exact location of the crossing. But the bribing that I was talking about would be enough for Russian corrupt official, which are plenty, to just sms exact time and location of the next crossing, so that it can be easily captured, at least on camera. Obviously the location of the BUK would also be revealed long time ago if it existed on Russian territory. Unless Putin actually managed to successfully bit corruption, which is silly to assume.
This site is doing excellent work bringing important evidence and information to the public.
Here is the video from allegedly 16 July 2014 (posted on 17 July). On 20th minute they are discussing the SU that is in the sky but not sure if it can be seen on the video. Don’t have means atThe moment for frame by frame analysis
https://youtu.be/HXMWhdqUTdk
But there is no reason for them to pretend that there is SU flying around on that date. The whole video also doesn’t indicate staging of conversation
Interesting video, I had not seen that one yet Walter.
No, I do not think it was staged, there is no GWP, RT, or LieNews microphone in the camera.
I think the guys may have believed that it might be a SU or some other aircraft.
It could have just as easily been a passenger aircraft they heard flying around 32k feet.
And to admin, as far as your article and your interpretation of reading articles.
Please be sure you are sure about things like the kyiv post article.
Your facts and that page of Kyivpost lead someone to believe that aircraft were flying and shot down that day.
When in fact the facts are the NSDC reported that day, the facts regarding a previous situation.
You need to understanding this in your reading, your writing, and your information you provide.
We do not need more misinformation, the Kremlin sponsored media does enough of that.
Thank you for an interesting site.
Please try to be more clear in your articles in the future.
Fare thee well
Cool. Bellingcat sect is encroaching this website. So much fun. Particularly Boggled, who authors every second comment there. Beautiful. Nice conspiracy that after being attacked by SU for months the rebels will not be able to distinguish it’s sound ofrom the sound of airliner at 32k feet, which would be…. Practically non existent.
Antidyatel,
Yup, many aircraft were flying around at the time.
Military aircraft as well as civilian.
Airspace wasn’t close until after July 17, and the cieling was raised to 32k feet on July 14.
Important if the video was made from before hand.
And you cannot guarantee that it was not made before July 16.
Anyone could fly lower before then.
Turboprop and Jet.
And there are both kinds in civilian aircraft.
Even Crop dusters.
Yes, I imagine they could identify jet and turboprop, but maybe not.
An aircraft can attack from a long ways away and once you hear the noise of the aircraft it was too late.
They would not really worry about it if they were experienced in the battlefield.
Eyes are the best warning, and they did not make that observation by sight.
It was just a bunch of scared rabbits that heard a noise in the bush and said + did you think that is a snake, I think that is a snake, yeah that is a snake.
Aircraft and missiles don’t go for troop movements regularly, they are saved for AA emplacements stingers RPG GRAD and artillery.
A bunch of recon units would not be worried about aircraft unless they were in a wide open field and scared of being sighted.
And those experienced and valuing their lives would not be in an open field.
No, I do not think they identified a SU plane, it did sound like a jet though at about 5-7 km. so it could have been that just as well as a full sized civilian jet between 10 km to 20 km depending on the echo created by it.
Or a drone.
Yes I think it was made before July 16th.
Probably the during July 12-14.
It looks more like a recon video and probing attacks then a part of the first stages of a battle to take Saur Mohyla.
Fare thee well
Wow. How sensitive are we with dates now? Every Bellingcat’s photo is accepted to be made at a date social media claimed it was taken. And Bellingcat worshipers like you swallow it smoothly. And now such lack of trust at dates. Interesting why. So who sent famous Paris Match photo to whome? Paris-Match to Higgins or in opposite direction. Or was it all coordinated by Peter Leonard from AP with his “convincing” story of Russian officers waging finger at him and saying not to take photos of BUK because it is very big secret. And is it why the name of the file from Paris-Match has Snezhnoe in, which made Paris-Match to claim wrong location at first, exposing themselves that it was not their journalists who took it.
Walter, you go where the evidence takes you and if evidence suggests incorrect dates from some sources, you adjust your theory.
It is all part of analyzing the data and evidence you collect.
I answered the reason for the titling of the photo in another post at BC, maybe you saw it?
Basically, when setting up a folder for containing your pictures from the day, you label it with a relative point of reference.
I would suppose the photographers bulk of photos was from there or that is where he started his day out at.
As to how Mr. Higgins got the photos, I expect he would say he got them sent to him.
I am guessing your insinuating that the SBU took the photo, gave it to Higgins, then he transferred it to ParisMatch?
Do you have ANY FACTUAL evidence that happened or a PROVEN FACTUAL history of that happening for Mr.Higgins?
If not, then all that is is some child playing Clue and before her first turn rolling the dice she screams out it was Mr.Plum in the Kitchen with a wrench.
Fare thee well
What I don’t understand about you Boggled is if you 1) have logic and self reflection deficiency; 2) you are deliberately blond.
Let me explain it to you on fingers. 1) Paris-Match published infamous photo with original cation that BUK is in Snezhnoe. The claim was that Paris-Match team photographed it at 9 am, 17th July. 2) After they were pointed at obvious inconsistency of the caption. They changed it to Donetsk and 11 am. They didn’t retract that their team has taken the photo. 3) Now we see that the name of the file has Snezhnoe. We also know that originally Nayda claimed that BUK was seen in Donetzk at 9 am.
So what we know: Paris-Matched lied about the photographer, location and time. Bellingcat still didn’t correct it’s articles (or did they?) having in one 9am claim and in another 11 am claim. Most active cover (up) of the story was given by Peter Leonard from AP with his ridiculously fake reporting, that even Bellingcat should have noticed. Do you really need all the cards open in Cluedo for you to make an intelligent guess on who is the disinformation culprit, how the dis-info was generated and distributed, and what are the implications of it?
Boggled said:
“I would suppose the photographers bulk of photos was from there or that is where he started his day out at.”
Re-read Paris-Match article. They claim to start their journey from Donetsk. How deeper in manure are you going to push yourself?
As I was banned on Bellingcat could not ask you one question that I felt is very important. What do you think about the following statement: Baltics states (Finland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia).
Regarding ParisMatch –
Donetsk could also be the Donetsk Oblast, not Donetsk City.
Donetsk City is part of the ‘county’ of Donetsk, so therefore covers a larger region, and that is why it is put out that way.
Like I said, I do not know why the photographer labelled the folder that way, a majority of the images or memorable moments of photos not published were from Snezhnoe would be a logical reason why I would label it that way.
Times could be a simple reason of why they analyzed them that way. Timestamps may be from 11, but the photographer states was in Donetsk(possibly Oblast) that time 9am but the photo from actually 11am.
There may be a lot of information that gets lost both in translation and analysis.
Should they be more accurate, sure.
Timestamps also label both upload time and actual time photo was taken, did Paris match story writer put in upload time when it could have been time taken?
I have not wrote ParisMatch for all those clarifications, maybe you should since your concerned.
Now to your ‘statement’.
You do know that most statements are in the form of a sentence or declaration with a noun and verb?
I am not a hundred percent sure of what your trying to imply there but my guess is that you are asking why they are still considered states and not countries?
The name has carried on in use since the fall of the Soviet Empire, and they have not changed them for legal reasons is my guess.
I do not necessarily consider them ‘states’ myself but individual nations or countries or self governed regions.
States to me implies they are still part of the Soviet system, which does not make sense to me.
IF they are considered states, then PL, Germany and so many others would be considered Baltic states.
But to my knowledge, just the three and not Finland are considered Baltic states.
Usually the way they are describe in modern society is the Baltics, without the states part.
Old Soviets like you would probably discuss them as Baltic States because that is what you learned and how you always discussed them.
The Soviet empire is no longer so they are no longer considered states, they are their own individual entities that the USA refused to acknowledge their occupation by Stalin and his crew.
Finland has no reason to be included in that list in my opinion or when you discuss the ‘Baltics’.
And I think Mordor trying to rewrite history so many ways and rearrange borders is a BIG mistake for them.
They are voiding past agreements and treaties left and right, which to me says that shows their ‘words’ on paper and trust in anything it says becomes invalid and they are walking a dangerous path.
Fare thee well
I see that you still need some help. Here is what Paris-Match wrote:
“The team of Paris Match had just photographed such a missile launcher on the edge of Donetsk, on the road to Snizhne the morning of Thursday, July 17, hours before the tragedy that claimed the lives of 298 people.”
Are you sure that you want to continue your line of arguments?
Glad that you agreed exclude Finland from definition of Baltics states.
Next question, if I was your business partner in Russia and we wanted to sign an agreement translated to English and Russian, would you agree to sign the Russian version using Cyrillic alphabets, just for my convenience?
And to that I will add another conspiracy theory that makes sense.
To those who love to say Ukrainians love to kill civilians, how about that bus stop that was a target for terrrorist artillery driving around in the truck?
That said it was rogue people, but that is BS, they were caught in what they have been doing all along.
Add to that the torture basements and other items shows a pattern of immoral activities.
vova threatened Ukraine being able to march into Kyiv many times before MH17.
He increasingly attempted provocations, that would encourage the European countries to look the other way as his country invades Ukraine and takes it all over, at least Mariupol and his land bridge to Odessa and his vassal in Moldova.
vova tried over and over again using civilian deaths caused by his agents as a reason to invade.
It did not work because they kept getting exposed by Ukrainian patriots.
He kept stepping it up.
Ukraine knew something big was coming so great was his frustration and increasing threats of nukes to Ukrainian leadership, overt first then covert.
They backed off with their planes, but the civilian deaths caused by GRU and FSB agents kept increasing.
They still got exposed by Ukrainian agents working inside Eastern Ukraine.
vova got so frustrated, he devised the plan of a civilian aircraft disaster that would allow him to invade Ukraine that he could pin on Ukraine.
AND once again, his agents got caught.
Those Ukrainians know all the former KGB moves and deceptions.
Sure the underlings even as high as Strelkov did not know the full extent.
That is why so much confusion around the crash site and the internet.
He had the cover story in place.
I am not sure if the intention cover story was to be a mistaken AN26 by the terrorists and he throws them under the bus for the greater good of acquiring Ukraine, or if the intention was to blame Ukraine for killing a civilian airliner and LieNews being on the scene fouled that all up.
Criminals make the stupidest mistakes, look at the multiple lies from Russia MoD that keep getting exposed.
Did Ukrainian military kill civilians in the early part of the war? Yes, I believe they did, but how do you stop a tank or GRAD or artillery firing from right alongside an apartment from 5 to ten or more km away?
The terrorists are just as guilty of using human shields regularly and killing civilians in attacks on their own areas so they can blame the Ukraine military to those not smart enough in Russia and Donetsk to figure out the truth.
They get caught over and over again. And exposed again and again.
The immorality of the Kremlin and its agents in East Ukraine is disgusting and reckless.
The UN really should have stepped in before now and prevented a lot of other civilian fatalities.
Anyways, my feeling is an intentional strike at a civilian airliner as a pretext to invade, and I think it makes sense.
More sense then thinking they are targeting a AN26 and accidentally shot MH17.
With a precise piece of SAM material that has those safeguard built into it.
Anyone going on about an SU25 or some other military aircraft, except for a stealth fighter of some sort, when NOT ONE was seen on any other radar watching the area, MH17 included as well as the other civilian airliners in the area.
Stealth fighters leave their own traces and people watching know what to watch for.
An intentional Kremlin orchestrated terrorist act is the only thing that makes sense, and they got caught, is my conspiracy theory and what I believe is going to be the conclusion the investigation comes to if the public learns the full truth about what happened.
We may not in the name of preventing a nuclear war.
Can it be proven? Probably enough to have vova back out of Eastern Ukraine AND Crimea.
Will we know all the facts? Probably not to prevent a serious civil war happening in Russia where nukes end up floating in all of the terrorists of the worlds hands.
But we will know for a fact someone inside Russian borders are guilty and can make assumptions who those people are.
Along with vova experiencing a FSB revolution in RedSquare where he ends up unfortunately passing away in a heroic death of fighting off some enemy.
That is my conspiracy theory, and it is a lot better then any of those created by Kremlin sponsored media.
Fare thee well
Wow. Boggled, with such “valuable” and soaked in propaganda comment you better go back to safe heaven of Bellingcat, where they can ban commenters opening your garbage. Eliot Higgins should be tried in international court as war criminal, just for his involvement in chemical attack episode in Damascus. Don’t know how they would qualify the sect members, like you,
And talking about conspiracy theories. Don’t worry, people don’t often belive in conspiracies and we noticed when Bellingcat was created. So we roughly know when the decision to down the airliner was finalised
“Believe in coincidence”
America continues to hide their evidence. I can only mean one thing, their evidence implicates the Ukrainians not the Russians or the anti coup separatists
For shame Maxwell, and you have also bought into the Kremlin sponsored media lie that the USA is hiding evidence?
You will soon learn what some evidence was collected from the USA for the DSB report.
Then the next report will be the JIT report in which you will learn a little more about evidence from the USA.
Then will come the court cases and tribunal which you will learn EVEN MORE evidence that the USA contributed.
No, America is not hiding its evidence, there is just a procedure to follow for releasing it.
You will see it all to your hearts content (or dismay)
Turn off Kremlin sponsored media, turn on non Kremlin sponsored media and use your head.
Fare thee well
Boggled said:
“No, America is not hiding its evidence, there is just a procedure to follow for releasing it.”
America was trigger happy to release satellite images of imaginary Russian columns invading Ukraine without any procedure. All they were asked to do is to release same quality satellite images on MH17 case. Nothing hard. But you will still play ignorance behind you Bellingcat mantra, that they are afraid to expose their military capability. You really know how to humour my slippers
Wait until October, you do know vova, churkin, Bahgdad Bob, Surkin, and peskov have all seen the full report.
Wonder why they are not releasing what it says?
HMMM.
Russia is in it deep, did you go out an buy yourself a new pair of chest waders? You will continue to follow them, you will be just as deep.
Don’t you think if the report said Kyiv did it, Russia would have been releasing bits and pieces so they could proclaim we were right?
Why aren’t they releasing it, huh?
In prosecutions, there are procedures to follow, and in this one which could be considered an act of war on the international community by Russia, the West is being very careful of the path it follows.
Fare thee well
I would like to thank visitor from Bellingcat sect, Boggled, for pointingwith his unintelligent comment on obvious inconsistency in their main witness testimony. I mean the guy who made Buk trail photo. Here is his story: “And at 16:20 we heard an explosion. The first explosion was not very heavy. 15 seconds later, something like that, there was a second explosion, which was louder and it made the windows shake.”
I wonder if our resident Scientist/Engineer Rob can figure out the issue. Also the leaks from Dutch report indicate that this guy is a primary witness. That is going to be fantastic if it is true, as it will expose cover up so easily
Have you banned me admin? Or is it a computer glitch on my end?
Doesn’t matter, you can fight it out.
And isn’t Anti as guilty as anyone else with insults like unintelligent?
I haven’t seen a admin admonishment there.
Walter, a plane flying at 500 mph, got it?
It gets hit at 500 mph, and sound travels at 700 mph.
First boom, but takes time to travel.
Plane as it crashes to ground is flying in same direction of sound.
Hits the ground, makes another boom that travels at 700 mph.
Just a guess, but don’t you think those sounds would end up being closer together then the actual incident of the missile hitting the plane?
Like 15 seconds apart?
Fare thee well
Nice try. And now go and calculate sound intensity from BUK missile exploding at 10 km altitude and then traveling down to his house placed nearly 20 km away.
Also if u on imply that two explosions are from the crash side in relation to witness, why would he first spend so much time photographing totally opposite direction.
Have you banned me admin? Or is it a computer glitch on my end?
Doesn’t matter, you can fight it out.
And isn’t Anti as guilty as anyone else with insults like unintelligent?
I haven’t seen a admin admonishment there.
Walter, a plane flying at 500 mph, got it?
It gets hit at 500 mph, and sound travels at 700 mph.
First boom, but takes time to travel.
Plane as it crashes to ground is flying in same direction of sound.
Hits the ground, makes another boom that travels at 700 mph.
Just a guess, but don’t you think those sounds would end up being closer together then the actual incident of the missile hitting the plane?
Like 15 seconds apart?
Fare thee well
Hey, I think AD will be really frustrated as his commander in charge (propaganda department of UKR ARMY) admitted that they were flying on Wednesday 16th July 2014
“Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile Wednesday evening was forced to bail after his jet was shot down. He said the rockets launched at Ukrainian troops were fired from the Russian village of Kuibyshevo.
Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets.
The Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely”
http://bigstoryap.org/article/russia-dismisses-us-sanctions-bullying
ROB AND OTHER Bellingcat’s Witnesses
A new video from Hromadske.tv a Ukrainian tv channel financed by Dutch government