Member of Ukraine ruling party requests prosecutor to investigate failure to close airspace
Sergei Kaplin, member of the Ukraine Parliament (called Rada) and member of ruling party ‘Petro Poroshenko’s Bloc’ announced he requested the Ukraine prosecutor to investigate why the airspace over Eastern Ukraine was not closed at July 17.
Kaplin announced his action on his personal .
Kaplin has sent a letter to Prosecutor General of Ukraine Viktor Socino and the head of the NSDC Oleksandr Turchynov stating the Ukraine goverment was aware surface to air missile systems capable of reaching 14km to 18km altitude were deployed in Eastern Ukraine at July 14.
Civil servants were aware of the danger for civil aviation but refused to close the airspace because closure would mean they did not receive money from the airlines anymore.
Their greed could have resulted in the death of 298 persons.
This news was publised by various Russian news agencies like here in English. Sputnik news published an article in German language on August 25. Ria Novosti published in Russian language here.
Only a very few Ukraine websites published the story. For example 0532.ua here.
Western media did not report about the remarkable initiative of the member of Parliament.
Below is a copy of the letter sent to the Prosecutor General and head of NSDC.
Kind of a slanted article when Syria still has passenger flights into and out of their country.
Don’t get me wrong, I am upset Russia put BUK’s in both terrorist groups hands, Strelkov – Bezler et all and Assad and that MH17 was a victim of that.
However, there are many war zones that have Fighter Jets and a variety of SAM’s based there all over the world.
Ukraine’s decision at the time may have been based on three months of serious conflict and not once has a civilian airplane from Cesna to Boeing has even reported AK47’s being fired at them.
There are a lot of safeguards built into a BUK.
The only one’s that would launch a BUK at a civilian airplane were either completely inexperienced and should not have been in there, which makes the supplier of the BUk and the one who purchased the equipment the main guilty culprits.
Other planes had crossed into that area over Donbas that MH17 flew and never got a scratch.
I remind you 4 years running, and there is not a no fly zone over Syria, and it took one of Russia’s Aeroflot planes getting targeted that they finally decided to avoid the airspace voluntarily.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/05/time-fly-zone-syria-150519114121950.html
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/four-israeli-f-15s-dodged-syrian-missile-fire-to-attack-urgent-targets-a28cff11323d
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Downing-of-Turkish-jet-reveals-Syrias-lethality
http://www.rt.com/news/rockets-russian-plane-syria-575/
And finally, just a few days after MH17, what does Malaysia airlines do?
Have a look at the flight path of MH14.
And also a reminder, ISIL has captured fighter jets and many other types of high grade military hardware, and flights still utilize its airspace.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2701059/Malaysia-Airlines-defends-rerouting-flight-Syria-war-zone-just-days-tragic-MH17-crash.html
I am sorry MH17 happened and they lost their lives, but closing airspace completely is and was an irresponsible thing to do at the time since there were no other civilian flights that reported any threats in Ukraine.
Fare thee well
You realy amaze me. You write:
“I am sorry MH17 happened and they lost their lives, but closing airspace completely is and was an irresponsible thing to do at the time since there were no other civilian flights that reported any threats in Ukraine”
So explain me why it should be irresponsible to close airspace.
Your way of thinking is:
we do not need safetybelts in cars. So far never an accident happened.
we do not need x-ray scans in airports. So far nobody took a gun ad highjacked a plane
we should continue smoking. We never have seen proof it is bad.
we should sell alcohol to kids. No proof it is bad.
To prevent something should not need a terrible accident like MH17. All flags raised were red. Already many airlines avoided East Ukraine airspace (some some safety concerns over Eastern Ukraine). Logical thinking should prevail
Yet the Ukraine government did nothing.
The question is why they did nothing.And why some of the Western intelligence agencies did not warn their airlines. And why did US airlines avoid the area after July 14 ?
admin, to a certain point you have valid arguments.
Maybe it would have been better if I stated that instead of ‘an irresponsible thing to do and said it was ‘against commonly practiced norms today in conflict areas’.
Let’s put it this way, according to your thinking.
Iraq has a lot terrorists with a lot of IEDs and homicide bombers, therefore the government should shut down all businesses, schools, hospitals and impose martial law and make it against the law for anyone to be outside during any part of the day, until they clean that up.
IF we do that the terrorists have already won, because that is what they want to do is shut down society.
And another point, to me it appears you are of the opinion of about 60 – 40 that that the evidence points to either Russia or Ukraine shot down the plane and are guilty, shouldn’t all Russian airspace be closed to International carriers as well?
Yes, I think Ukraine should of rerouted all flights around Donbas and avoided that airspace and that would have been the correct and responsible thing to do with so many shoulder launched and probably other air incursions happening in the events leading up to July 17 2014, BUT closing all of Ukraine’s airspace?
To that I say a firm NO.
Directing or approving a pilot requested flight path that puts it in harm’s way was not the right thing, in my eyes, but closing all of Ukrainian airspace is another.
So tell me admin, since there are potential murderers in the city were you live with guns, shouldn’t you be demanding your government declare martial law until they catch all the murders or potential murders that make ideal threats online?
Since there are radical Islamists that are interspersed with Muslims and they are usually the ones that carry out bomb attacks and other heinous crimes, shouldn’t you be demanding the government shut down the city until they kick all the Muslims out?
That is what your proposing when you say UA should have closed its airspace.
Shouldn’t you be demanding all of Russian airspace closed?
NO one thinks anyone would intend to shoot down a passenger plane, and there are many safeguards in a BUK and other mobile launchers.
And Ukraine is not Syria, Afghanistan, or Iraq where shoulder launched SAMs and regular mobile launchers are found in terrorist’s groups hands who have demonstrated they will use them against civilian targets.
Ukraine did the right thing and allowing overflight with a flight restriction.
What they did not do right was to allow BOTH Aeroflot and MH17 to reroute (by paths the pilots chose) over Donbas.
And the Aeroflot flights did venture that way quite frequently in the trips to Greece and to Crimea.
But closing all of Ukraine’s airspace? NO
Fare thee well
Boggled: I never meant to say that Ukraine should close its complete airspace. That is obvious nonsense!
Ukriane should have closed the airspace over a warzone in Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine has close ties to the US. The US has an incredible amount of intel (satelites etc). They knew BUKs were crossing the border and Ukraine knew as well. Ukraine even told the date and time (early morning of July 17 officially. I believe it was some days earlier)
But also after the downing of the Antonov (July 14) and SU25 (July 16) both by advanced missiles there is more then enough reasons to close the Eastern Ukraine airspace.
Could you explain this?
What they did not do right was to allow BOTH Aeroflot and MH17 to reroute (by paths the pilots chose) over Donbas.
And the Aeroflot flights did venture that way quite frequently in the trips to Greece and to Crimea.
As Andrew stated, the USA stated that they did not have information – at the time – of BUK’s crossing over from Russia.
Interesting to see you state, that in fact, it is a fact the USA knew at the time there were BUKs crossing the border.
What the Ukrainian’s knew or stated was their planes were downed from outside sources they believed.
They did not believe it was a Separatist BUK at the time, and I do not think many now believe that either.
They could not close Russian airspace, but I think they believed the military craft higher altitude shoot downs were the result of Russian military action, and that therefore Russian airspace should be closed and I imagine they made that recommendation and RF scoffed at that as everything else they scoff at coming from Ukraine.
They were done by weapons that are supposed to have safeguards in them that prevent civilian aircraft from being targeted, and they did not believe any sane military commander or fighter jet pilot would initiate such an action.
And they were right, no sane person would.
A criminal would though, if it benefited them.
A crazy dictator just might do it for some larger political reason if he does not value life as much as those in the “western’ world value life.
A few links for my statement, first two show flight paths very similar or crossing over the point MH17 got hit at.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html?_r=0
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/18/article-2697098-1FC20C9A00000578-167_634x424.jpg
The final one is an article about rerouting procedures.
I am sure you can search for that info yourself.
I always believed and still believe a pilot sees a problem, has his co pilot work out an alternative route around an turbulence, storm, fireworks, etc.
Then he calls into ATC and makes a request for route change and offers his request of what he sees as the most beneficial routing.
ATC controller then approves or denies this request.
If he denies it or sees a better routing because of conflicting flight paths or planes in to close proximity, he makes a final ruling and directs the plane.
If he sees no conflicts, then he gives approval for the pilot’s and co pilot’s navigation.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/explainer/2011/11/pilots_making_up_time_during_a_flight_is_it_real_.html
Fare thee well
Boggled: I still do not understand your statement below:
What they did not do right was to allow BOTH Aeroflot and MH17 to reroute (by paths the pilots chose) over Donbas.
And the Aeroflot flights did venture that way quite frequently in the trips to Greece and to Crimea.
First of all the pilots of MH17 requested a deviation to the left from the airway to prevent weather. The deviation was a couple of miles more north.
MH17 was correcting back to the center of the airway as filled in the flightplan when it was shot down.
So why your “allow to reroute” and what would be the impact of this reroute?
It is just I am split on the decision to completely close flight paths over conflict area or to allow pilots and airliners to make their own decision before they submit a flight path for review with a limit of 32k feet or so base altitude.
I mean as I pointed out in other comments, MA flew directly over Syria the day after MH17 went down.
Are we giving too much weight to a NOTAM and issuing a no fly zone over their conflict zone?
It is important, yes.
BUT even in Syria there are SAMs both mobile and shoulder launched even BUK M2, there are fighter aircraft, there are scuds which attain that altitude, there are artillery being lobbed at lower elevations, helicopters, and missiles flying all through the air.
Yet they still have not closed Syrian airspace to civilian traffic.
Many carriers have chosen not to fly over Syria, but some do.
And knock on wood, they have not had a major fatal incident.
And to me, it seems just a lot more crazy people are in that conflict zone and under trained that have access to high altitude weapons.
And more chance of an ‘accident’ happening regarding a passenger plane.
Does a NOTAM continue to evolve as the borders of separatists evolve and the zone must must be increased past the border depending on the SAM they think is in the separatists hands or the one they know?
Do you take into account a MANPAD being launched from the top of a skyscraper?
If they get S200 missiles from you, but do not get a launcher from you, do you close airspace in a 300 km larger area then the border of the conflict zone?
Should airspace over Germany be closed because in Kalingrad there are SAMs capable of 500 km flights?
Since we discuss NOTAMs, shouldn’t we discuss also the reason for their assessment, Russian versus Ukraine and what differences were between the two, the reason for allowing airliners and pilots to make their own personal assessments in overflight restrictions, the possibility of RF NOTAMs being issued before anyone knowing a base was captured and the weapons they acquired, the issuance of RF due to weapons they sent across the border, the controller that approved a rerouting, etc.?
How much bearing do airlines place on NOTAMs?
You seem to place a lot of responsibility on Ukraine’s NOTAM and why they did not issue a higher one from a lot of things posted online versus actual physical evidence and information that Ukraine had at its disposal.
The assessment for a NOTAM is a guideline, in my opinion, and the airliner places its own restrictions above that.
A redundant factor that must go into consideration when issuing a NOTAM.
They have their own analysts to do that kind of work.
IF they were concerned, their decision would have added more restrictions, as many carriers had.
The chance of an accidental shooting with a BUK is very unlikely.
There is no history of it, that I know of.
There is lots of safeguards built in to prevent it.
Ukraine might have known of that since they have had BUKs and KUBs since the 60s, do you think?
IF they knew they had them, they knew the intent and safeguards to prevent a deliberate action like that would make it almost impossible to consider.
Their military hierarchy knew all the capabilities and ins and outs of a BUK and how a well trained crew would act.
Those are the only ones that should be inside such a lethal weapon.
It is one thing to give a guy an AK47 or an IGLA, train him for 15 minutes and ask him to shoot, but it is a complete other thing to put a crew together to drive and shoot a T90 tank or a BUK.
And the NOTAMs I believe reacted to that.
Not only to the possession, although that is a factor, but the risk assessment of a civilian aircraft being hit accidentally.
There is little you can do against a deliberate targeting and launch against an airliner.
And that is what I think, as horrendous as it sounds, is what happened most likely.
There is the slight possibility in my head of a bad identification of an aircraft for either side as well.
And after that, someone had to say, I do not care to confirm identity even though they knew civilian aircraft were passing at that altitude.
BUT that is the only reason for an accident
It was either Ukraine, I doubt this but it is possible, or Russia that issued that order.
I am not 100 percent sure yet.
In either cases above, nothing would have prevented a shooting with a NOTAM short of closing the airspace from Dnieper River to the East.
That would be just almost like saying close all of Ukraine’s airspace, because we all know RF has BUK and larger missiles in its defense structure all along the border with Ukraine.
And declaring an open war with RF which I believe the Kremlin has been hoping for all along so they have a reason to march into Ukraine with its full military force.
A fight Ukraine knows it would not win.
So they wanted to keep it this hybrid war level and prevent a full scale occupation (or as the Kremlin would say a liberation), and many of their actions have prevented this.
Anyways, my previous comment and this one goes mainly to the the people that says ULTIMATELY Ukraine is responsible for not closing its own airspace when they knew a BUK MIGHT be there and driving across the roads.
And not the people that pressed the launch button.
Or those they got it from.
A BUK may have been reported by proKyiv people online, but they would want confirmation by a government agent before they issued a NOTAM fully closing the space.
Too long, I know, but I felt a fuller explanation was necessary for explaining the reason of the sentence and what I meant by it.
Fare thee well
To comment on this, you have to know something about the Ukrainian political scene. First, Serhiy Kaplin, despite being now a member of the presidential ‘Petro Poroshenko’s Bloc” party, is a well known populist and chatterbox having changed a bunch of party affiliations before founding this summer a personal pocket “Serhiy Kaplin’s Grassroots Party” (while still being a member of the presidential party). Then, you have to know the first mention of the presence of a ‘Buk’ system in the occupied part of the Donbas came from the Ukrainian security structures at about noon or before noon on July 17, 2014. That very day, in the afternoon, the MH17 flight have been downed, presumably by a ‘Buk’ missile launched from the occupied part of the Donbas. Besides, you have to know the Ukrainian security services used to publicly announce a lot of unchecked “horror” messages about the actions of the other side of the conflict (and they still sometimes use to, though, generally, they tend to be much more accurate now). In this situation, the Ukrainian air traffic regulator did obviously not receive any full information that unhappy day that would have substantiated a total closure of the airspace over the Donbas, just some indications — that came true too soon. And, returning to Kaplin, the Ukrainian dossiers on him note his somehow pro-Russian position (e. g., having founded the Russian-language “Russian-Ukrainian Gazette” in Ukraine back in 2008).
Thank you for background info.
I knew UA was a corrupted mess of management before 2014 and it still is. (perhaps improving, I do not know)
IMO: BUK is irrelevant. Airspace should have been closed by UA after first downing of an aircraft in the area, also RU could have stopped flights over the border and in the end international aviation organizations should have acted.
And it’s criminal that they did not close the airspace when AN26 was downed from high altitude 14JUL2014.
and if July 14 shot down was not enough for a strong indication for air war: At July 16 a SU-25 was shot down flying at 6000 meters.
Ukraine said it was shot down by a Russian fighter aircraft.
That should be more than enough reason to close airspace for civil aviation.
And that’s why Ukraine has closed its airspace in the region up until 10000 meters or so. Before news of a ‘Buk’ in the hands of the separatists appeared, there had been no reason to close the airspace altogether. You may still claim the opposite but the Ukrainian authorities obviously have their own reasoning, and the investigation knows it — we don’t. And, possibly, we don’t know it exactly because of the confidentiality of the investigation.
Prosto Tak:
News of a separatist BUK had been building throughout June after the apparent loss of control of 156th Regiment base A-0194 on June 4 and exploded on June 29 with the capture of A-1402.
Ukraine closed its airspace to 8 km on June 5 just after loss of A-0194. Coincidence?
Andrew: what is your source confirming Ukraine closed its airspace over East Ukraine from main sea level to flightlevel 260 (26000 feet) on ** June 5 *** ?
I read sources stating closure to FL260 started ** July 1 **.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/mh17-disaster-flights-over-war-zones-because-its-cheaper-20140717-zua0y
admin, to this I say there is some difference between a shoulder fired indiscriminate SAM and a BUK launcher with all the abilities to identify and avoid shooting down a civilian aircraft.
Ukraine knew what was left on the base, what they had given up and made the determination it was dangerous to fly in range of a shoulder fired missile that has no safeguards to it.
So they had actionable intelligence from what they left there and what the separatists claimed they found.
And therefore closed the airspace to that left for something that could target almost anything without identifying it and having any safeguards.
To the captured BUK bases, they had knowledge, which I am assuming they supplied JIT of what they left at the base and its state of readiness.
ie, none active or easily repairable without outside help and materials.
As I stated before, I saw a statement that confirmed all that from the separatists, I just wish I could find it again.
Regardless, the possibility of an accident with a shoulder fired missile is very high.
The chance of an accident with a fully repaired BUK and repaired BUK missiles is comparably is very low.
Fare thee well
This article has part of the June 30 NOTAM issued by UA.
https://www.shine.com.au/malaysia-airline-mh17-passenger-jet-shot-ukraine/
I am not sure if Andrew is claiming the Russian one from earlier or if there was another UA one.
This NOTAM I linked mentions conflict with the RF one and it also mentions a March 28 NOTAM issued by Ukraine, if I am reading this right.
I did see in the economist and this article the claim of a 8000 meters for July 1st but I have not seen the particular NOTAM.
‘A Notice To Airmen (NOTAM) was “issued by Ukraine on July 1st barred flying below 8,000 metres (26,000 feet) in the east of the country” (The Economist, 2014).’
http://www.mejb.com/upgrade_flash/Jan2015/m17.htm
I will keep looking though.
Fare thee well
Boggled: try to be on the topic. Many NOTAMS have been issued. I like to show any proof of a NOTAM issued for Eastern Ukraine before July 1 which says a closure up to flightlevel 260!
The NOTAM you refer to is a NOTAM for Crimea. Crimea was stolen by Russia. Russia provided air traffic control services for airspace controlled by Ukraine. So basically two ATC controlled the same area.
Admin:
“what is your source confirming Ukraine closed its airspace over East Ukraine from main sea level to flightlevel 260 (26000 feet) on ** June 5 *** ? I read sources stating closure to FL260 started ** July 1 **.”
A1256/14 – TEMPORARY RESERVED AREA BOUNDED BY COORDINATES 501900N 0364942E 490600N 0365000E 481520N 0360510E 475542N 0355136E 472200N 0363900E 465300N 0370500E 464700N 037000E 465900N 0382000E 470642N 0381324E THEN ALONG STATE BOUNDARY UNTIL POINT 051900N 0346942E. AUTHORIZED FLIGHTS OF STATE AIRCRAFT OF UKRAINE. FOR FLIGHTS OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT NEED HAVE PERMISSION HEADQUARTERS OF ARMED FORCES OF UKRAINE NOT LESS THAN ONE DAY BEFORE FLIGHT. SFC – FL260, 06 JUN 00:00 2014 UNTIL 30 JUN 23:59 2014. CREATED: 05 JUN 13:34 2014.
I happened upon this here:
http://vk.com/vegchel?w=wall-67359347_730571%2Fa727f5206dd5af5327
But also see here:
http://bobik-57.livejournal.com/1289283.html
The comments are most interesting. People were already making the connection to BUK-M1, the Siberian Air 1812 tragedy, the Ukrainian supply of BUK’s and BUK crews to Georgia in the 2008 war, and proposing that Ukraine was preparing a provocation with a civil airliner to blame on the Militia.
“Бук” хохлядский нормально так доставал и повыше. Намёк понятен? Или разжевать. Собьют каку нить америкашку и скажут что Стрелков с рогатки…
The Cossacks “BUK” is OK, and so reach higher. Is the hint clear? Or do you need it spoonfed? Shot down shit with a fucking thread(?) and say that Strelkov did it with a “slingshot”.
Andrew: interesting. I did some research in the past on NOTAMS and got the impression some were changed a bit by users on internet forums. This one however seems legit. I cheched for example this site
http://flightplan.romatsa.ro/mobile/notam/getnotam?ntm=UKDVA1256/2014
Romatsa is the organization in Romania for air traffic control services.
I will do some further investigation into this.
The NOTAM is interesting so I wrote a new blogpost about it. https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/east-ukraine-airspace-was-closed-up-to-26-000-feet-at-june-6-dsb-preliminary-report-does-not-mention-this-notam/
Admin:
I sent the links with the text of the NOTAM. The comment is caught in moderation.
Understood admin, and the link I sent was just part (E) of the longer NOTAM, the Crimea part.
I thought it might give ideas of ways to search for the earlier NOTAM from the March 28th date, which is the reason I wrote my comment.
Fare thee well