No one in Zaroshchenske saw a BUK TELAR launcher at July 17
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Almaz-Antey claims that MH17 was shot down by a BUK located near Zaroshchenske.
However there are no eyewitness who saw a BUK.
Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta spoke 6 people living in Zaroshchenske. Nobody saw a BUK. They told the reporter the area was under control by the separatists.
Max van der Werf visited the area and he approached several people. Nobody saw or heard anything like a BUK or BUK smoke plume. One man worked the whole day in the field and did not hear anything.
I included the comment of Andrew here because it is important to get the context:
” Max also found that south of Shyshovka and Zaroshchenske, there are literally no people around for 10 km. In the village of Shaposhnykovo he found one old man. Reports about the artillery attack on this village on 7/21-22/14 report a single old woman being killed. No other people or houses were seen until he found a couple of others in Mala Shyshovka far to the southeast. The launch area settled on by Almaz Antey encompasses the area from the southeast corner of Zaroshchenske to the northeast of Mala Shyshovka. This is a completely vacant territory lacking people to be eyewitnesses.”
German investigative bureau Correct!v went Zaroshchenske to and spoke to several people. Again nobody saw or heard anything what could be a BUK.
Dutch TV reporter Rudy Bouma of NOS Nieuwsuur visited Zaroschenskoye in October 2015 and “villagers didn’t witness a Buk launch previous to the crash”, though the Ukrainian army was around 5km away at the time.
The Dutch TV filmed in and the item can be seen here (at 18:00)
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So Russia in a couple of days has managed to manufacture a dozen of witnesses who saw Ukrainian military warplanes at the site, but failed
to manufacture after over a year a single witness who saw a Buk in Zaroshchenske? That’s odd.
That is a clever remark ;-). It is telling DSB did not interview eyewitness on the groud. DSB states: that was no our task. However Annex 13 says:
When possible, the scene of the accident shall be visited, the wreckage examined and statements taken from witnesses.
PAge 21 of Annex 13 http://www.emsa.europa.eu/retro/Docs/marine_casualties/annex_13.pdf
Marcel:
Have you decided if you are willing to post my Zaroshchens’ke paper here and allow it to be debated?
I agree that no one in Zaroshchenske saw a BUK. I believe two BUK’s came north from Amvrosievka and visited briefly and happened to be photographed at this location by the Russian satellite, then relocated south to an unpopulated area near Shaposhnykovo or perhaps even Mala Shyshovka.
Was there a launch? That is a great question we should explore.
Where can I find your article?
See here http://kremlintroll.nl/?p=569#more-569
A very detailed report on the positions of Ukraine army
Could you try to post this on Bellingcat, Maksim? 🙂
No matter what you believe. No-one saw the BUK.
RU MOD is confirmed liar. Their material is fake.
You are silly fool if you still believe them.
>Was there a launch?
There was not. No photos no eyewitness.
If there was “launch”, it’s unrelated to MH17 as MH17 damage is impossible vs BUK launch from Z.
Waste of time.
These BUKs were operative in an area almost unpopulated, so that there are no witnesses reported is not that strange. Besides, Ukraine had 27 BUK units in the area, and there are only a few instances in which they were filmed. Mostly by themselves (i.e. 5 and 16 july).
The opposite is true for the rebel convoys, which were all filmed quite a few times in that period of time, except… The famous (non-existing?) BUK transport on the 17th.
SBU is a confirmed lier. their material is fake. Nice soundbite.
The Zaroshchenskoye SAT of the Russians still hasn’t been proved to be fake. Bcat were reading tealeaves and the SBU saw non-existing terrain inconsistencies.
There is NO evidence of a launch from south-of-Snizhne area, contrary to the Shyshivka area densely populated. Only one heavily debunked picture with so much irregularities, You would need days to sum them up all, exists.
The reports from the battles indicate an attempt of the Ukies to move from the entire Amvrosievka area to the east to penetrate the DSB designated area by 15 km.
They thought a MiG shot down a SU25 near Gregorievka on the 16th when they lost Marinovka.
All the more reason to back up their liberation attempt of the southern cauldron (area east from Marinovka between Russia and rebel areas)) with some BUKs left behind, positioned to watch the russian border.
I reckon we should look for the launchsite in an area between Blagodatne-Saurivka-Shapshnikove, east from AA area and (south)west from DSB area. It matches the damage assessments too.
Almaz-Antey did not say that it was Buk in both presentations. Why are you putting words into their mouth? They said that IF it was Buk, then such type of missile and from such location. The Dutch need to prove first that it was Buk and not, say, the Python missile launched from Su-25KM.
BTW, this last scenario hasn’t been investigated (other weapons were, see appendix X sections 3-5)
Python is too tiny and it would hit the engine, not cockpit.
I know you think that, but the question is: What do the official investigators think about it? 🙂
Marcel:
“Dutch TV reporter Rudy Bouma of NOS Nieuwsuur visited Zaroschenskoye in October 2015 and “villagers didn’t witness a Buk launch previous to the crash”, though the Ukrainian army was around 5km away at the time.”
Interesting, as “around 5 km” from Zaroshchenske is the very visible checkpoint at Bolshaya Shyshovka under construction on July 16. There is no other military location at that range that is plausible. So it seems Bouma’s interviewee’s confirm this was a Ukrainian position, as I have been stating? If so, there was nothing to impede Ukraine moving military equipment anywhere between Dubove, west of Zaroshchens’ke and Blahodatnoe to the south, and in fact much to permit it.
This would also provide additional confirmation invalidating Bellingcat’s paper on military control of this area.
“Max van der Werf visited the area and he approached several people. Nobody saw or heard anything like a BUK or BUK smoke plume. One man worked the whole day in the field and did not hear anything.”
Yes, and Max also found that south of Shyshovka and Zaroshchenske, there are literally no people around for 10 km. In the village of Shaposhnykovo he found one old man. Reports about the artillery attack on this village on 7/21-22/14 report a single old woman being killed. No other people or houses were seen until he found a couple of others in Mala Shyshovka far to the southeast. The launch area settled on by Almaz Antey encompasses the area from the southeast corner of Zaroshchenske to the northeast of Mala Shyshovka. This is a completely vacant territory lacking people to be eyewitnesses.
I asked rudy bouma on twitter why he hadn’t visited the Shyshivka’s and Shaposhnykove and ask around there. He asked me why…
The war zone maps of mid-July provided by Ukraine’s Council for National Security and Defense (RNBO) were wrong. According to this RNBO map of 17 July, http://inforesist.org/situaciya-v-zone-ato-17-iyulya-karta/
the rebels-held territory expands to the south of the town of Amvrosievka. However, Internet-published news of mid-July indicated that Amvrosievka was held by Ukrainian forces:
16 July
http://warsonline.info/ukraine/novorossiya-operativnaya-svodka-za-16-iiulya-2014-goda.html
…Несколько РСЗО “Град” ополчения нанесли удар по блокпосту “нацгвардии” у села Великая Шишовка в 6 км. южнее г. Шахтерск… [Militia’s Grad launchers fired at the checkpoint of National Guard near the village of Velika Shishovka, 6 km south of the town of Shakhtyorsk.] Velika Shishovka [Shishivka in Ukrainian] is close to the road Torez-Snizhne and to Zaroshchenskoe.
17 July
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1674983.html
Жители Амвросиевки сообщают, что ночь на 17 июля была самой спокойной за последний месяц. Все подразделения хунты отправлены на фронт, в городе остались только блокпосты. [Amvrosievka residents say that the night (from 16 July) to 17 July was the most calm over the past month. All the units of “junta” (i.e. the Kiev government) were dispatched to the frontline; just their checkpoints remained in the town (Amvrosievka)].
This is, the map presented by RNBO showed the division line significantly farther to the south than it was in reality in mid-July.
abcd:
I addressed this in my paper. The actual “line of contact” which is an imaginary line midway between established military positions was west of Stepano-Krynka and Rusko-Orlivka, south of Dubove, near Zaroshchenske, north of Bolshaya Shyshovka, south of Ternove, west of Petrovske and Manulovka.
Amvrosievka was the main ATO Sector D HQ/Logistics area and Blagodatnoe further north was occupied since June by the National Guard.
The location of the GRAD attack you note was near Mala Shyshovka northwest of Blagodatnoe. Eyewitnesses in Torez place the firing location near Shakhtne or Zhures. Some sort of recon group in the no-man’s-land or local informant would need to have provided the information on the convoy, which does not appear to have been actually hit (likely due to inaccurate target grid coordinates).
The strangest thing is the ukrainians left Velyka Shyshivka right after that, and started shelling the area heavily after the MH17 crash.
Were they covering something up overthere? Intimidating the civilians? There is no account why they did it, though on satellite maps the craters are seen in abundance.
See Andrew’s outstanding work on http://kremlintroll.nl/?p=569