Russia promised handover of raw radar recordings is propaganda to disturb JIT announcement
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At September 22 Russia made public it will hand over raw primary radar recordings to the Joint Investigation Team! That is 26 months after MH17 was shot down.
Joint Investigation Team responded on this news by saying they have not yet recieved raw radar recordings and are waiting for future developments.
It is not a coincidence that next Wednesday Joint Investigation Team will make public the exact type of missile as well as the exact launch location.
Russia stated earlier in 2015 to Dutch Safety Board the raw radar recordings were not archived and thus could not be handed over. Russia only handed over processed radar images. These so-called at the glass recordings is a video of what the Rostov air traffic controller saw on his screen. Small objects like a missile are filtered out and are not displayed at the screen.
Specialists of a company named AO NPO LEMZ (Lianozovo Electromechanical Plant) found in archives the raw radar recordings covering the area where MH17 flew on July 17 2014. This company saved the radar data used by Rostov air traffic control for monitoring performance of radars. AO NPO LEMZ is responsible for maintenance on the radar system.
Almaz Antey is the mother company of AO NPO LEMZ. Almaz released a press bulletin on September 22 about the found radar recordings.
Russian media like Tass and Sputnik reported about the press bulletin.
My opinion
This all of sudden finding of radar just 6 days before JIT makes public the exact launch location is obviously complete nonsense. Russia will now say that JIT did not have all the required evidence for determination of the launch location.
The radar recordings, if they indeed will be handed over, will not reveal anything. I doubt a BUK missile can be detected by a radar station far away from where the missile flew.
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But radar data can contain marks from the present in that area and on that day the aircraft Ukrainian Air Force. This explains the sudden repair of all radars in Ukraine and the lack of primary data – they did not want to show the presence of Air Force sorties.
There is a Google map image from a day before, which shows a Kiev Su-25 flying in that area. I wonder why would Kiev deny they used airplanes.
On July 16 Ukrainian Su-25 flew multiple sorties. But none on July 17.
Also proRU info confirm no UA flights 17jul, at least not before MH17 was shot.
The crash site was in range of Ukrainian secondary radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport. Raw and processed records from it (and video of replay of ATC screen) were passed to international investigators on July 23, 2014. See appendix M to DSB final report on pages 81-82 of the file with appendices A-U
http://onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/77c9b856be08report-mh17-crash-appendices.pdf
Primary radar ТРЛК-7 (near Pechenegi and Chuguev in Kharkov region)
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=ru&lat=49.896570&lon=36.949886&z=19
on July 17 was under maintenance.
Primary radar ТРЛК-8 (near Zajtsevo and Artemovsk in Donetsk region) was destroyed (shot with RPG) by Russian bandits on June 16, 2014:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=48.532319&lon=38.097121&z=18&m=b&show=/15518033/ru/%D0%A2%D0%A0%D0%9B%D0%9A-8-%28%D0%90%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%29
http://bahmut.com.ua/news/incidents/1720-v-artemovskom-rayone-neizvestnye-povredili-radar-ukraeroruha.html
Radars in the infamous Donetsk airport (at the frontline) destroyed. Another primary radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport out of range 60 NM (254 km from missile strike site).
What Russian MoD claimed was allegedly fighter jet on replay of radar data was MH17 debris falling down and misinyerpretation of ATC data processing:
https://whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/russian-atc-lesson-101-the-phantom-su25/
Lena: “secondary radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport. Raw and processed records from it (and video of replay of ATC screen”..
Secondary radar using transponder based data (SSR/Mode-S). Since missiles and military attack crafts will not have these (enabled), it’s a useless remark you are making which adds nearly zero.
You’re just repeating the same Ukrainian party line: the only station(s) which would have registered MH-17 on the primary were in maintenance. And silence on all the military radar on a day a Russian air intrusion was more or less expected (openly, publicly stated).
It’s almost as unbelievable as submitting data the last week before the report.
We see from Ukraine ATC convo that their PSR was indeed offline.
But not having any mil radar on is weird.
Mil radar not recording would sound more credible.
Hugh, the primary radar in question responsible for this sector is located on territory that was occupied by separatist forces for couple of month. About a month before MH-17 crash separatists accused radar team on “helping the ukrainian goverment” and blew off radar equipment with few RPG shots. Perhaps this action was meant to allow Russian aviation to act in airspace over Donbass with less risk of detection, but nobody knows for sure. Few weeks later separatist were forced to withdraw from this region and Ukraine initiated repairs on radar site. On a moment of MH-17 disaster these repairs were not completed yet.
>>Another primary radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport out of range 60 NM (254 km from missile strike site).
Whether Ukrainian aviation flights are carried out on the day has a value to case regardless of who shot down MH17. Dnepropetrovsk radar may well show the Ukrainian aviation flights to the area of operations.
>>But none on July 17.
While there is no reason to believe that this statement is true.
1. Obviously they have removed all objects (planes and/or missiles) pointing to the guilt of Russia. If there was none (detectable), Russia would have provided raw data long ago.
2. Very likely they have injected false data indicating something that can be interpreted as a missile coming from the south. However, they had to make this the way it can be interpreted as a radio noise/interference/clutter as well. Then JIT will not dare to directly accuse Russia of fabricating the data, and will claim it’s just a RFI, but Russian propaganda will go hysterical over JIT disregarding this conclusive “evidence”.
3. They might inject false data that could justify what was seen on the fake video of the Rostov Aerial Center and the fake picture of air situation in Donetsk region, demonstrated at Russian MoD briefing on MH-17.
I think that Russia lied that raw data expired and was never copied because it evidenced the lie about a fighter jet on the MoD briefing. Really it was MH17 debris falling down.
I think that the video of replay (with re-processing by ATC software) of radar data shown on the MoD briefing was not faked. And that the picture of air situation in Donetsk region
http://stat.multimedia.mil.ru/images/military/military/photo/mh17_brief_09-900%281%29.jpg
was from Kontainer over-the-horizon radar near Nizhny Novgorod
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=ru&lat=56.693160&lon=43.486269&z=15&m=b
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/container/
Its range up to 2000 – 3000 km, the missile strike site is 1010 km away from it, in the observed 240° sector. What was misinterpreted as a fighter jet was MH17 cockpit falling down separately. Else the mythical jet would have to takeoff from off-airstrip ground in the Russian-occupied area and land elsewhere on off-airstrip ground in the occupied area (it’s an over-the horizon radar).
>>If there was none (detectable), Russia would have provided raw data long ago.
I think JIT has enough evidence to investigate. Shelter radar records (and I think part of the wreckage MN17 are stored in Russia) is a means of ensuring the integrity of the investigation.
Hiding evidence is a crime.
Ф forgery investigation is too.
“obviously complete nonsense”
It depends on the supplied back story. Retrieving auto-deleted data can take a while. What you are really asking is why has information about any attempt to restore data not been conveyed before?
The press release claims that only July 2016 an official request of the JIT was made to Russia. Why they would see this special request from the Dutch prosecutor as different from earlier requests would be an interesting question. However the initial DSB inquiry and the suspicious Ukrainian role in that was not supported by Russia and some hesitation to show all the cards could be imagine. It’s quite normal from a political point of view to let others make their move first if you don’t trust their motives. And for the end result (“justice”) it does not matter since the inquiry does not live on radar alone. But false data? Not likely, as data can only be used to corroborate other lines of evidence. On itself it has little meaning or weight and will only make Russia look silly if there’s nothing else to support it.
“I doubt a BUK missile can be detected by a radar station”
At least we could lay at rest any claim of jets approaching the 5km in the area. Assuming Russia had more to go on than those earlier recordings.
I think it can’t detect BUK’s missile. BUT It can clarify another aircraft/debris near mh17 before and after crash.
I wonder who hijacked the #MH17 on twitter.
The A-A supercomputer is now free to run twitter bots?
“A radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft”
This would be SIGINT via satellite.
“A second system saw a heat signature”
This would be SBIRS.
“As far as I know, the SBIRS-IR-system cannot see what happens below the coulds.”
According to US info, their modern SBIRS can see through clouds.
But I believe that means ballistic missiles that radiate 10x more energy vs BUK.
“the russian primary data can not reveal anything new, isn’t it?”
Because PSR output has already been seen, and we know rostov radar specs, we know no fighterjet were flying above clouds. Just airliners + helicopter on the border was seen.
It is very doubtfull (even if possible in theory) that a civilian PSR detected BUK missile from Rostov.
And we who studied (+DSB) know from MH17 wreckage and BUK specs that BUK was launched from the 320sqkm area.
So it would seem impossible RU RAW data could reveal anything significant.
sotilaspassi:
“And we who studied (+DSB) know from MH17 wreckage and BUK specs that BUK was launched from the 320sqkm area.”
Whose BUK specs?
“Design II uses the geometric design according to Almaz Antey, but the corresponding ejection angles and fragment velocities are calculated by TNO.” – TNO report page 15.
The best match based on the damage pattern observed on the recovered parts of MH17 was design II and: “For a given position the variation in azimuth is 3° positive and negative, and in elevation 5° positive and negative without diminishing the quality of the match.” – TNO report page 22.
I guess such a finding would perhaps indicate a launch from an estimated 320 square kilometers area and be consistent with information provided by the Americans regarding a launch site. Were those ejection angles and fragment velocity calculations perhaps influenced by preexisting information supplied by the Americans?
The ´new´ russian data is not from Rostow radar, it is from Ust-Donets radar which measure and compare radar data with Rostow radar for the reason of security for example.
Almaz Antei offered full data a lot of times to the DSB and JIT, but DSB and JIT they never wanted them. In July 2016 JIT asked for the data and Almaz Antei gave them to the authorities 6 weeks later.
JIT also asked for raw primary radar data of NATO states and Ukraine and still received nothing until now!
Have you read the official report, boy? The Russian raw data was asked many times, but russian officials insisted that it was deleted and they were not oblidged to keep anything, but a video allegedly captured from a operator terminal that they already presented.
There were no raw primary data from NATO states – they are simply too far away from location of a crash.
Ukraine civilian primary radar at the site was controlled by rebels for soem time and was blown about a month before MH-17 crash before govemerment liberated the region. So yes, it was on repairs and couldn’t provide any data. However Ukraininan goverment handed raw records of secondary radars – something that Russia did not bothered to do.